Hi there,
My name is Mike Long and I am the owner of ATB Guitars based in Cheltenham. I am new to posting on this forum (this is my first post). The reason I have decided to contribute is because I think this forum could use a balanced viewpoint from someone who sells vintage guitars for a living and has done so successfully, for a fair number of years, starting as a hobby, way back when I was at Uni in the 1980’s
I do not want to get in to the old vs new debate too much as I will have a biased viewpoint on this (of course..:-) I just want to set the record straight and dispel a few myths that have propagated on this forum about vintage guitars, vintage guitar dealers and also about my business.
I sell a lot of vintage guitars, some of you may be surprised by the quantity I sell and I feel I am well placed to comment on the vintage guitar marketplace. I live and breath vintage guitars every single day of my life, they are my passion, my obsession and despite what some call ‘eye watering' or ’stupid prices’ they do sell at, or close to, or even sometimes more than the prices I list them for. Have a look at my website and see the amount of stock on hold or sold. They do not in general stick around for very long.
The overwhelming majority of my customers are players, some of whom also like to collect guitars. They are not super rich, they are just players who have aspired to these instruments for some time and are now at the stage of their lives where they can afford to treat themselves. Pretty much all of them will also realise the investment potential their purchases can bring. They are not all 50+. I am happy to report an increasing demand from players in their 30’s early 40’s and even 20’s. I have seen this demographic steadily rise, especially over the last 3 years for same reason.
Yes, you do have to be careful as there are a fair few 'interesting' instruments out there but if you buy from a dealer you can expect that dealer to be 100% accountable for what they are selling. This is the law, as simple as that. This law obviously does not apply to private deals and just for reference, the number of guitars I receive from private sellers with undisclosed issues is pretty significant.
I think this is a great forum, an excellent resource with some very knowledgeable people on here. However, it seems it is far to easy to make a flippant, throw away comment, based on heresy or an opinion with little or no substance just to seem ‘cool’ to other forum members. There is a human being at the blunt end of this rhetoric and despite what a small minority of people think on here (most of whom I have never had any dealings with), I can assure you I have not got to where I am by being dishonest or ripping people off.
That all being said, I will look forward to making a positive contribution to this forum and sharing the wealth of knowledge I have gained over my years in this business. Where I can make a valued contribution or comment to a thread I will endeavour to do so. However, because my business keeps me very busy I may not be able to contribute as much as I would like to. I also look forward to meeting some of you at the two guitar shows (Kempton Pk and Bristol) I do each year. I am more than happy to be contacted about any vintage guitar matters either by DM or tagging me in forum posts and am happy to give personal opinions and advice on any vintage guitars I have knowledge of
Sorry this is such a long first post!
Comments
What would you say were the sleeper 'previously ignored or undervalued' vintage instruments gaining traction and a fanbase these days?
Been uploading old tracks I recorded ages ago and hopefully some new noodles here.
Regardless of law some dealers (vintage or otherwise) do lie, and regardless of law they make it very hard to sort afterwards. But on flip side others go out their way with honest descriptions and after sales of highest order.
Don't take it too personally as we don't hate vintage dealers as a whole. We do hate dealers who treat people badly. I'll assume your in the good guy category as the other sorts would be unlikely to be so public on a forum like this.
Welcome, enjoy your stay, its always good to have experience from all aspects of the trade from manufacturers, dealers, parts, players and so on.
its a great forum
For example , I have a yamaha SG from around 1985...I paid less than £400..now its probably double that I guess.....
Generally the vintage tag sees to apply to Fenders / Gibsons....is that correct ?
https://www.studiowear.co.uk/ -
https://twitter.com/spark240
Facebook - m.me/studiowear.co.uk
Reddit r/newmusicreview
There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking stereotypes exist for a reason. Same reason estate agents have a bad reputation.
If so many people hadn’t been burned buying an “all original” guitar that later turns out to be anything but all original then they wouldn’t be bitching about it afterwards. Of course some buyers are unreasonable as well but dismissing some of the genuine examples of unreasonable behaviour by guitar dealers that have been posted on here recently as “rhetoric” is frankly arrogant. There was a recent example on here of a dealer trying to defraud a seller on a commission sale by lying about the sale price. Was that rhetoric?
Studio: https://www.voltperoctave.com
Music: https://www.euclideancircuits.com
Me: https://www.jamesrichmond.com
Good to have another business here, and someone daring to put their head above the parapet.
jf122 said: Same reason estate agents have a bad reputation.
When we sold our last house, the estate agents were brilliant.
Like I said, there are always exceptions to the rule. I’ve also had good experiences with estate agents. Predominantly bad overall though.
Sadly my experience of vintage dealers is that dealers like that are in the minority. Another minority are actively and deliberately crooked, and a large number in the middle seem to think being economical with the truth or pleading ignorance when challenged is just part of the way this business should operate, despite it being quite possible to make an honest profit.
See also: second hand car salesmen. There are honest ones of those too, I have personal experience of a couple. But there is a reason they have the reputation they do in general.
If you're an honest dealer you will be welcome here, and hopefully gain some business.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
I cannot say that out of all the 1000's of vintage guitars I have sold there has been the occasional problem, or aspect I have missed. However I do pride myself in my ability to sort out any issues that arise expeditiously and amicably. If no agreement can be reached than I am happy to provide a full refund without question. That is how I think it should work for everyone.
We are human, we are not super human and mistakes do occasionally get made. There is no one out there who knows everything about these guitars and even after all these years hardly a month goes by without me learning something new.
Yes, I have looked over the thread you mentioned regarding the J-200 and all I can say is the way the dealer chose to play it is not the way I would choose. Then again I very rarely do any commission sales, the ones I have done, I have provided sales receipts for the consigners so they can see the whole sale process. Transparency is the key here and there is absolutely no point deliberately trying to deceive. It will bite you back in the end!
Spending many thousands of Pounds is no guarantee of securing one's *ideal* guitar. Disappointment is always a possibility.
Very difficult to say... I always thought the offsets were great candidates for 'sleeper guitars' in the vintage market but they have struggled to get anywhere close to what they should be getting.
I can give you some insights on what has shown strong growth over the last year or two. At one end of the market 50's Les Paul Juniors have shown great growths in price as more people realise what great guitars these actually are.
On the other end of the market place Les Paul Goldtops are very strong right now, I have sold six this year alone and i have people on my waiting list for both clean Juniors and good Goldtops, especially wrap tails.
Black guard Teles are also strong, rising in price and in demand at the moment too. Even refins.
https://sixstringsupplies.co.uk/
Our YouTube Channel for handy "How-To" Wiring Tutorials
Stupid name I picked up years ago which is a long boring story... this is ATB Guitars now and it is just a change of name, not ownership or anything like that, we have not gone bust, the limited company I have, I have owned since 1999.
Welcome to the bear pit, Mike.
In a nutshell (and this is the same across the board in retail) you only hear a fuss from the disgruntled customers. It’s the nature of the job (dealing with the public). If the issue isn’t handled very well it ends up in a forum post. Happy customers will only ever post “NGD”. Not, “the dealer I got this vintage guitar from was amazing”.
Its good to have a balanced view on the vintage guitar market and as someone who will probably never own a vintage guitar I look forward to seeing the threads in the future.
• Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@Goldeneraguitars