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Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
Pure modal music has a different set of harmonisations from those of Ionian and Aeolian.
We know Ionian has I ii iii IV V vi vii°.
And Aeolian has i ii° III iv v VI VII. *
Note: Some people write Aeolian with flats in front of the 3rd, 6th and 7th, to show how the note degrees deviate from Ionian (i ii° bIII iv v bVI bVII). Others don't, they just say "it's minor so obviously those notes are flattened").
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It follows that the other scales have different harmonisations too. So in order of lightest to darkest scale, with the important chords to listen out for, they go like this:
Lydian: I II iii #iv° V vi vii
Ionian: I ii iii IV V vi vii°
Mixolydian: I ii iii° IV v vi bVII
Dorian: i ii III IV v #vi° VII
Aeolian: i ii° III iv v VI VII
Phrygian: i bII III iv v° VI vii
Locrian: forget about it. oh ok, it's i° II iii iv bV VI vii
Notes:
- the scales above are grouped by the three major modes, then the three minor modes, then the diminished mode.
- major chords are capitalised; minor chords are lower case.
- I've also put Ionian and Aeolian in italics, as they're the "default" scales for major and minor, so you can see the scales above and below them in each case; the one above having a raised note, the one below having a flattened note.
- I've also bolded the chords that most clearly characterise the mode. For example, the II chord in Lydian.
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Here's a test case - Lydian:
If you think carefully about it, Lydian has a raised 4th in the scale, right? so it follows that when you think of Lydian's chords, the way they are different from Ionian (apart from the 4th chord starting a semitone higher than normal and being a diminished chord not a major chord), is that the two chord must be a II not a ii. Why is this? Because in order to ensure that the 4th degree of the scale is raised, the II-chord must have a major 3rd.
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With respect to your difficulty in recognising modes by ear @Cranky ;is that because you struggle to hear notes? Can you identify the 6th degree of the scale in a minor piece for example? For that matter, can you tell if a piece is in major or minor? If you can, then I think you’ll be able to tell what scale is being used. Because if you can hear the 3rd degree of the scale, then I’m sure you’ll be able to hear the 2nd, 4th, 6th and 7th, which is all you need for Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian. Remember there’s only 1 note difference between each mode.
* note: by the way, a lot of minor songs are i ii° III iv V VI VII, which deviates from pure Aeolian but sounds good.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
(Demo is the 3rd mode of mode)
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
I think I'm alright at telling if a single chord is major, minor, lydian, or maybe even phrygian. But an entire song? I feel that I'm not even close.
FWIW I think modes are rather more subtle than many (including me) often think. The fact that the Ionian and Aeolian modes share the same notes as the Major and Natural Minor scales is deeply unfortunate because it means that people tend think of them as being the same.
This belief then leads people to think of the other modes in a similar way. Namely, “let’s do something in Lydian by using a II chord rather than a ii”. Or, “it’s got a bVII therefore it’s Mixo”.....
But I don’t think this logic is correct at all.
IMO whole notion of a “chord progression” is intimately linked to functional harmony (hence the notion of “progression”) and the modes other than Ionian don’t really fit into this. Even Natural Minor usually replaces the v m7 with a V7 to give a stronger tritone tension in the five position to facilitate a stronger resolution.
I’m not sure that the term “modal chord progression” isn’t even an oxymoron. Modes are much more about a scale sound over a drone note and much less about chords.
But we all know how to construct chords from scales so we like to do it whenever we are given a scale, and then start playing a “progression”.
Try playing a “modal chord progression” other than Ionian. It’s sort of unsatisfying IMO. Maybe a I, bVII, IV, I sounds okay because it is so embedded in our ears from blues and pop. But most others just sound rubbish.
Just because one chooses to play a chord with a #4 doesn’t mean it’s Lydian. It’s because it sounds good in that context.
All IMO of course.
And you need chord 7 to tell you if it’s Ionian or Mixolydian (if major), or Aeolian or Phrygian (if minor).
The i and the iv or IV.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
I think I can work out modal mixtures and borrowed chords okay. So a tune that isn't 100% true to it's mode should still be workable.
Up until a year or so ago, I really had never thought about any of this stuff. I knew I-IV-V, relative minors, and pentatonic scales. I thought of the rest as "extra," but consciously decided to put those old ways to bed. It's been quite enlightening along the way, I'm very grateful to folks like you.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
I don’t agree that modes and functional harmony sit well together.
Each mode has a single tritone and the location of this relative to the Root and hence the Tonic is very important. It just so happens that the Ionian tritone sits in the correct position but not so for the others modes.
It is for this reason that the V7 needs to replace the v m7 in Minor - a second tritone is created inside the five chord position because otherwise we only have the one in the flat seven position and this isn’t of any use in functional harmony.
A second example, the Dominant chord in Lydian is II7 but where does this resolve ? I suppose one might argue it resolves to the V, but that’s not something I’d agree with. The notion of “resolution” is to the Tonic not to somewhere else.
Of course we could repeat the idea of Natural Minor above and choose to replace the V Maj7 in Lydian with a V7 and construct chord progressions using this as the Dominant (like we do in Minor). But that is a very substantial change and completely defeats the notion of a “modal chord progression”, instead we have moved into the realms of Major plus accidentals.
So to summarise, IMO it really is only the Ionian that truly fits the notion of functional harmony. Without a V7 it’s hard to write chord “progressions”, and with it it’s really Major plus some outside notes.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
Firstly I must say this is all my point of view. There is a large degree of subjectivity in music theory and much of what I say is purely my opinion.
I think weak resolutions are just that, weak. They lend themselves to chord movements that we are accustomed to hearing (eg I bVII IV I) and other circular vamps without any particular resolution. Maybe the same criticism could also be levelled at the purely triadic I IV V I progression, hence the common addition of the flat seven to the V to form the tritone and ram home the resolution.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe all strong chord progressions adhere to functional harmony ideas. But often I prefer to denote chord progressions with a II as Major/Minor plus an accidental rather than any notion of Lydian with a II7. On the other hand seeing a bVII will always make me think Mixo rather than considering it as a diminished triad in Major but with a flattened root.
That’s not to say that understanding modes isn’t very useful. Take Blues for example where often we use Dorian add 3 which is the same as Mixolydian add b3. This scale contains 10 of the 12 chord tones across the entire progression hence its use in soloing. It’s also known as the hybrid scale, mixing Major and Minor Pentatonics.
It’s empowering to know this stuff if only to know its limitations. There’s only 12 notes and all of them can sound good if handled correctly. That’s the way I prefer to think rather than pigeon hole everything into a particular mode or scale.
I don’t know what people have against playing single note mode lines over drones, preferring instead to bastardise modes into chord progressions. Playing some E Phrygian lines while droning the low E is always good fun. Much more so than playing Em C F Em.
Sorry for my waffle. No doubt much of it is garbage, but it’s my garbage.
I also agree that it's fulfilling playing a mode over a drone. (I'm not sure anyone is against doing that)
With the II in Lydian, it completely depends on the context. Lydian pieces are allowable, and they typically have a II chord. However, I agree in many cases a II chord is just a parallel chord, or an accidental deployed to give an instantaneous change in flavour.
Basically I think it's an and, not an either/or. Lots of modal music is harmonically satisfying, but so is playing over a drone.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
What mode is this? It's very unusual.
*An Official Foo-Approved guitarist since Sept 2023.