What jazz do you like?

smigeon · July 2021

Yes indeed. Although, as it 'appens, that drums-based dichotomy I suggested above (i.e., 2+4 on snare for "R&B etc." vs beat carried on ride or hi-hat for "jazz") does often also apply equally well to "blues" vs "jazz blues". Although obviously not always.

And, clearly, as you say, there's also the difference in the "blues" vs "jazz blues" case that the chords in the latter are almost always more sophisticated than just yer straightforward I IV V.

boogieman · July 2021

Older stuff, I like pianists more than anything. Dave Brubeck is my favourite, especially his original quartet with Paul Desmond. I’ve got a ton of his stuff on vinyl. Not so keen on vocalists, although Kurt Elling is fantastic.

I mainly like jazz fusion though. I’m a massive John McLaughlin fan but also like Return to Forever, Weather Report, Zawinul Project, Tribal Tech, Headhunters etc etc, plus all the various solo offshoots by people like Larry Corryell, Jaco Pastorius, Billy Cobham, Stanley Clarke, Lenny White, Jan Hammer.

There’s a hell of a lot of crossover in jazz though, especially if you define jazz as music with long improv sections and off-normal time signatures. For instance I’d consider bands like Magma and King Crimson to have a very strong jazz element. Even some of Paco de Lucia’s later work like Zyryab has a jazz vibe where he’d obviously absorbed influences from McLaughlin.

TINMAN82 · July 2021

Greatape said:

smigeon said:

HAL9000 said:

As an aside, and a genuine question - Where does jazz begin? And blues, rhythm’n’blues, etc end?

I like people such as Ray Charles, Nina Simone, Etta James, Ella Fitzgerald, etc. but, depending on where you look, they seem to be sometimes categorised as jazz, but just as often something else. I can appreciate the likes of Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, etc. but would very rarely choose to listen to them.

One definition off the top of my hat:

- Blues, Rhythm'n'blues etc: snare is on the 2 and 4
- Jazz: from the drummer's perspective, the beat is carried mainly by the ride cymbal

As usual with such definitions, there are gazillions of exceptions and half-way houses that "prove the rule".

When does a blues become a jazz blues, for example?

I think chord substitution / extension / alteration comes into it. How the players navigate the changes. Lots of crossover..

Like you infer, very muddied waters...

At a basic level, the turnaround is often 6-2-5-1 instead of the usual 5-4-1.

Instead of all straightforward dominant 7th chords, there’s also frequent use of 9th, flat 9th, 13th chords (and many more variations).

Emp_Fab · July 2021

Delicious hot, disgusting cold.

JezWynd · July 2021

jazzlemming said:

I started making a huge list and then I thought, actually let’s focus on the UK. Usually these guys have a much lower profile compared to American jazz musicians (for a variety of compounding reasons) but their skill and originality is top-drawer and the pandemic has been disastrous for many musicians, especially those working in niche genres.

These are off the top of my head and mostly band leaders rather than sidemen, so there are loads of names missing for sure.

UK, so go and see these guys play!

Guitar:
Mike Walker
Chris Montague
Ant Law
Alex Munk

Piano:
Kit Downes
Gwilym Simcock
Django Bates
Robert Mitchell
Tom Crawley
Liam Noble
Nikki Illes
Jason Rebello

Sax:
Julian Arguilles
Mark Lockhart
Jason Yarde
Tim Garland
Ian Ballamy
James Allsopp
Mike Chillingworth
Shabaka Hutchings
George Crowley

Trumpet:
Henry Lowther
James Copus
Laura Jurd

Singers:
Lauren Kinsella
Emilia Martensson
Norma Winstone
Liane Carroll

Drums:
Gary Husband
Mark Sanders

Don't forget Byron Wallen.

Greatape · July 2021

TINMAN82 said:

Greatape said:

smigeon said:

HAL9000 said:

As an aside, and a genuine question - Where does jazz begin? And blues, rhythm’n’blues, etc end?

I like people such as Ray Charles, Nina Simone, Etta James, Ella Fitzgerald, etc. but, depending on where you look, they seem to be sometimes categorised as jazz, but just as often something else. I can appreciate the likes of Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, etc. but would very rarely choose to listen to them.

One definition off the top of my hat:

- Blues, Rhythm'n'blues etc: snare is on the 2 and 4
- Jazz: from the drummer's perspective, the beat is carried mainly by the ride cymbal

As usual with such definitions, there are gazillions of exceptions and half-way houses that "prove the rule".

When does a blues become a jazz blues, for example?

I think chord substitution / extension / alteration comes into it. How the players navigate the changes. Lots of crossover..

Like you infer, very muddied waters...

At a basic level, the turnaround is often 6-2-5-1 instead of the usual 5-4-1.

Instead of all straightforward dominant 7th chords, there’s also frequent use of 9th, flat 9th, 13th chords (and many more variations).

This is where my ignorance shows up. Am used to using b9 on V chord in mInor Ii-V-I but not in your usual blues. Otherwise, relatively common to see extended dominant chords in blues. As opposed to altered dominants? Except the 7#9.

jeez, rules and exceptions...

It's a shame so many players in the 60's/70's never got into the rich history of 'jazzier blues' and instead stuck with hammering an A pent over A min exclusively.

Grangousier · July 2021

I like almost any jazz - it's a way of making music I just enjoy, although recent stuff can be a bit too self-conscious for me to get really into it.

Currently watching/listening to this (there's a chap who talks first for a few minutes, you can probably skip him).

Fretwired · July 2021

I don't listen to rock music much these days .. it's mostly jazz and ambient. Jazz is becoming more mainstream and there's quite a scene in the UK - from the BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000pjds/jazz-625-the-british-jazz-explosion

Lots of new young talent like Christian Scott:

Portico Quartet - Endless

Jakob Bro - Mild

Hiromi Uehara The Trio Project "Desire"

Esbjörn Svensson Trio (Seven Days Of Falling/Elevation of Love)

espen eriksen Perfectly Unhappy

UnclePsychosis · July 2021

I like a lot of jazz, and a lot of jazz-inspired stuff too.

My favourite act in recent years are the marvelous GoGo Penguin. Anyone who enjoys EST or similar will no doubt hear some similarities, but I actually prefer GGP - I think they take this style to a new dimension.

UnclePsychosis · July 2021

Other things I like:

The guitar break in this next one is *chefs kiss*

Greatape · July 2021

Enjoyed this

Matthew Stevens on guitar.

Redlester · July 2021

Anyone reading this thread and wanting to listen to more contemporary stuff, then tune in to Jazz FM. During the day it does mix a lot more soul and 'easier listening' jazz tracks. But after six the programming becomes more specialist. There are some really good programmes. It is, quite honestly, streets ahead of BBC Radio 3 which theoretically is the BBC's 'home station' for jazz nationally, but which really does not get it right at all in my opinion. FOr example, it still features a show like Jazz Record Requests, which I'm sure has been giving pleasure to many a nonagenarian since it started in 1753, but seems to have little reason to continue going into the c.21st.

As for groups, I can highly recommend Ezra Collective. There are a lot of talented younger British kids who are mixing dance rhythms with jazz inspirations and coming up with things which are brilliant.

They feature on a recent compilation called Blue Note Reimagined, which features other newer artists and is well worth a listen.

viz · July 2021

TINMAN82 said:

Greatape said:

smigeon said:

HAL9000 said:

As an aside, and a genuine question - Where does jazz begin? And blues, rhythm’n’blues, etc end?

I like people such as Ray Charles, Nina Simone, Etta James, Ella Fitzgerald, etc. but, depending on where you look, they seem to be sometimes categorised as jazz, but just as often something else. I can appreciate the likes of Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, etc. but would very rarely choose to listen to them.

One definition off the top of my hat:

- Blues, Rhythm'n'blues etc: snare is on the 2 and 4
- Jazz: from the drummer's perspective, the beat is carried mainly by the ride cymbal

As usual with such definitions, there are gazillions of exceptions and half-way houses that "prove the rule".

When does a blues become a jazz blues, for example?

I think chord substitution / extension / alteration comes into it. How the players navigate the changes. Lots of crossover..

Like you infer, very muddied waters...

At a basic level, the turnaround is often 6-2-5-1 instead of the usual 5-4-1.

Instead of all straightforward dominant 7th chords, there’s also frequent use of 9th, flat 9th, 13th chords (and many more variations).

That's the main thing.

A secondary thing would be adding diminished chords between the changes, or a 251 in certain places, for example on the way from the I to the IV chord, you can do a 251 in the key of the IV chord.

Greatape · July 2021

Jazz is such a broad church....encompassing both Louis Armstrong and Wayne Krantz...Ella Fitzgerald and Mahavishnu Orchestra...

Increasingly, the label doesn't mean much, does it?

DoctorX · July 2021

Think this is probably my favourite jazz record

Other good ones:
Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers - Moanin’
Charles Mingus - Mingus Ah Um
The Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time Out

Hattigol · July 2021

duotone said:

I don’t listen to much jazz but when I do it’s usually Bill Evans. On his documentary one of the guys mentioned that in all the years, he never heard Bill play a wrong note.

You can't in jazz, can you?

EricTheWeary · July 2021

HAL9000 said:

As an aside, and a genuine question - Where does jazz begin? And blues, rhythm’n’blues, etc end?

I like people such as Ray Charles, Nina Simone, Etta James, Ella Fitzgerald, etc. but, depending on where you look, they seem to be sometimes categorised as jazz, but just as often something else. I can appreciate the likes of Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, etc. but would very rarely choose to listen to them.

It's interesting that, I think, you didn't really have clear divisions between these categories pre World War II and regional differences in the USA were probably bigger than genre ones. For example, Bessie Smith was known as the Empress of the Blues but I think we'd hear now most of what she did as early jazz. Blues was a type of song rather than as a genre, as likely to be sung by Bing Crosby as by Leadbelly. Listening to, say, T Bone Walker from the mid 1940s there are moments you could say 'that's blues,' moments you could say 'oh that's jazz' and he was as likely to be singing about Bobby Soxers ( Frank Sinatra fans) as he was Stormy Mondays.
In the late 1940s we start getting bebop and early electric blues ( Muddy Waters' I Can't be Satisfied pretty much the blueprint for Chicago blues released in 1948), the end of the Race Records category in 1949, By 1951 the arrival of the first rock'n'roll recordings as well. From 1940 onwards The Second Great Migration meant 5 million black people in the USA moving from the rural South to the cities of the North and these new styles developing.

So, I think the genres started separating out in the late 1940s. But plenty of people still going across genres; pop session aces like James Jamerson and Tommy Tedesco had jazz backgrounds, ( jazz guitarist)Kenny Burrell paid the mortgage for a while playing behind BB King. The dozens of differences we can point to between jazz and blues and gospel and RnB weren't always there.

boogieman · July 2021

@Fretwired thanks for posting that Hiromi Uehara clip, I hadn’t heard that before. Wow, what a beast of a player! The other two guys aren’t exactly slackers either. First time I heard of her apart from your post is when she did the Olympics opening ceremony last week, don’t know if you saw it? Very brave choice by the Japanese I thought.

Brad · July 2021

Big fan of hip-hop, neo/soul influenced jazz too. Can’t beat Roy Hargrove

https://youtu.be/NfILgLkfnMs

The Mood by Maurice Brown

https://youtu.be/f39Uqx6efek

And relative newcomer Alfa Mist

https://youtu.be/BVO_R8uvMhE

Grangousier · July 2021

Greatape said:

Enjoyed this

Matthew Stevens on guitar.

That's an excellent album, sort of like prog Joni Mitchell.

Howdy, Stranger!

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