So this is a slightly facetious question, but I don't fully understand why this trend of little to no stage volume has become a thing and why we guitarists bear the brunt of it?
I can understand from a balance and mixing point of view, having completely control of volume levels is optimum for the sound guy, but I'd be more onboard with this if EVERY instrument was silent, and we all the know the loudest thing by far is drums, and yet i dont see drummers being asked to play quieter or lug midi drums on stage?
Also, in most gigs, even in smaller clubs and low cap venues, everything is miced through PA that's run crazy loud. Usually the volume of band through PA is equal to or greater than the total volume of the band "acoustically" and so if the minimum volume of the PA is going to be equal to the band, why are we asked to turn down? serious question
Also, im not sure i fully buy the argument that silent stages, everything DI, kemper this etc. makes for a better live sound - especially if you're stood need the front and theres no crowd foldback monitors. And we all know its a way better experience having some on stage sound whilst you're playing.
In my mind, a (good) band should sound equal and balanced unmiced, which means that in order for guitars to be heard against drums, those amps need to be VERY loud most of the time.
Perhaps someone can enlighten me?
thanks
Comments
Issue I've always had is I can never get enough me in my monitor as I do backup vocals too and that creates feedback issues through my mic - so actually when I use my own amp as a monitor as well as foldback, I can have less through the monitor and less feedback issues.
Better to have amps firing across the stage instead pf straight out front but no one seems to do much of that?
Monitors often never sound good enough IMO
However if the guitar is too quiet onstage and you mic it up you will also run into problems. Because the guitar cab mic also picks up everything else onstage, especially the drums. If the amp is too quiet and near the drums then there will be as much drums in the cab mic as guitar and attempting to turn up the guitar from the mixing desk will just raise the volume of the drums as well.
Obviously if the guitar amp has some kind of direct emulated output or the guitarist gives you a feed from his Helix or similar then it's not a problem.
You also have to consider the venue and where people stand. If the backline is too low on volume and the PA speakers are doing all the work that might sound fine further back in the beam of the FOH speakers but people near the front of the stage will have a very drum heavy mix unless you use some in-fills and who wants to get into that for an average pub / club gig .
Generally in my experience for pub / club / wedding gigs it's best to set the backline volume so it's just a bit shy leaving room for the PA to reinforce it. Then just a bit of guitar in the FOH and it will sound OK pretty much where you stand.
Next week we start our weekend mini tour of venues in Leeds, Cirencester, Liverpool, Bristol and London and we have no amps onstage at all. I use a Pod Go, bass player uses a DI pedal and we have 3 keyboards which are DI'ed directly. There are no monitors onstage, it's all IEM's. Only noise onstage is the kit
Ha, joking. But doesn't that create issues for people at the front? Surely its just all drums? Also, does it not 'feel' naff having just IEM's? No bass freqs shaking your legs.
For my band personally, right now we're only playing small 100-300 cap venues, with average PA and disinterested sound guys and in my experience, drums just overwhelm in that situation, especially as they too are usually miced.
Having a DI signal for FOH and using in ears is something we're interested in but TBH we're clueless about the tech required on our part. Whats your setup? What gear do you need for the band to have IEM's? Do some sound guys get sniffy about it?
We supported a band two weeks ago and in the soundcheck the keys were having DI issues and the whole band couldnt get their IEM's to work, so they abandoned them and went on stage monitors. Then during the gig, the guitarist (also DI) started making a shitty, distorted clipping noise, like too much signal was being sent to desk.
I'd be really nervous going DI as you lose so much control over your sound no? With amp on stage at least I can control that.
The mini tour Is all theatres so PA and engineer provided.
Also surely an easy fix for big amps on stage is face them backwards?
Thing is I've heard bands with silent stages that sounded great - I've also heard bands with deafeningly loud on stage amps that also sounded great and I would argue that the latter was also a more energetic and visceral experience. I dunno if that volume feeds into the players' performances but it definitely feels a bit more 'real' and 'raw'.
I know that when I'm feeling that wall of sound you only get on stage at a gig I play with more intensity and give a better performance.
The argument for a noisy backline defined in one word.
I would imagine that setup is a bit more complex than knocking out 'SoF' down the boozer
I'm still getting to grips with the direct to PA and ears guitar sound. I like the fact you can change patches instantly and the effects available like intelligent harmoniser but it doesn't sound as warm and organic as a good old amp and analog pedal setup.
As far as stage volume goes in rock gigs we always used mic';ed amps and FOH guys, even in pubs ... so I was never a loud guy onstage, I always turned down if they asked me. Normally the vocal monitors were the loudest things onstage. Most the guys I play with are on ears now but there's still a couple who need their wedges at insane volumes.
I really realised this when I played at a big festival gig with my 50W 1x12” Mesa - the band who were on right before us asked to borrow it too, so I set it up for their guitarist, and while they were playing I went out front to see what it sounded like so I would know whether I needed to set it differently. Even at the back next to the sound desk when I was perfectly in line with it I could hear it clearly over the top of tens of thousands of watts of PA, and it wasn’t even cranked up - but just a few feet to one side and I couldn’t. Luckily, I hadn’t pointed it right at the soundman, or I’m certain I would have been told to turn it down.
After that I learnt never to point the amp straight out front if possible - always off to one side so no-one is directly in the firing line.
I also always raise it up so I can hear it better - if it’s on the floor you can’t hear it very well so you tend to have it too loud and too bright - although I’m not a fan of tilting it back so it’s pointing right at my own ears, that tends to produce the reverse problem of setting it too quiet and too dark. About waist to height seems to be about right.
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Seems really the issue isn't amps on stage or their volume, but more were they are pointing. Who needs a Kemper ey?!
The lower the stage volume the better. Less bleed into vocal mics, easier comminication. Monitoring is easier as its not trying to get over stage noise (be that in ears or wedges).
Electronic drums, or traditional kits with triggers are getting more and more common.
In ear monitiring is cheap these days, gives everyone what they want. You need everything into the desk for that anyway. Full pa capable of translating a full mix is also affordable these days.
It makes sense, and gives the audience the best experience, which is the most important thing by far.