Watches, Microbrands and Boutique

Barnezy · February 27

I’ve bought a few, but they for me are novelties that I soon stop wearing.

They seem cheaper than a Rolex, but the reality is they are not. If you can buy a Rolex new at retail, you won’t lose money on one, but one of these micro brands, you’ll likely lose at least 50% of what you paid.

Benefit is you won’t get stabbed for a micro brand though.

CavemanGrogg · February 28

FastEddie said:

As a watch collector, it's the same as someone building a strat from strat parts.
I like them.
I'm on this mailing list and you do get some really cool ideas. https://microbrandwatchworld.com/

The only downside is follow on service and residuals. They suffer.

These guys do amazing things with Seiko parts; https://www.namokimods.com/en-gb ; I'm tempted myself.

I'm of the same general opinion, a lot if not most of the microbrands are the watch equivalent of a partscaster in my opinion. To me if you're buying a mechanical watch, you're buying it for the movement, that's where all the technology, art, and skill is, so why would you buy a ''brand'' that uses somebody else technology, why not just buy a watch from the company that makes the movement.

The neighbour across the fence to me, who is really into micobrand watches - and watches in general, son is really into the modded and customised Seikos, he even mods and customises them himself, he has a little workshop for doing it, he's also really into watches and collecting them.

Kittyfrisk said:

^ I take it this is the Sistem 51 that is being discussed?
https://twobrokewatchsnobs.com/swatch-sistem51-review-quality/

That's the movement, and it ''can'' be serviced, though it's not always financially worth doing, especially on the resin model automatic Swatch watches, the automatic metal ones can easily be serviced. Neighbour's son does it, he's really into his watches, especially how they work, how to repair them, make them, customise, and mod them.

Sporky · February 28

CavemanGrogg said:

To me if you're buying a mechanical watch, you're buying it for the movement, that's where all the technology, art, and skill is

Then Habring2, or Horage, or Grand Seiko. Not microbrands (as they're usually defined), because microbrands - almost by definition - don't have the resources or expertise to design a movement.

Though I think you're missing a huge aspect of watchmaking - the finishing. GS, for instance, have excellent movements, but the Sallaz/Zaratsu polishing, the dials, the diamond cut hands... (some of which you get with Citizens "The Citizen" range) - that's what makes them specialm

Huge amounts of work and skill in doing those to the standard they do.

Anordain made it big on their dials - all hand enamelled; even with highly skilled enamellers a significant proportion go wrong. No-one cares what the movement is in one of those.

CavemanGrogg · February 29

Barnezy said:

I’ve bought a few, but they for me are novelties that I soon stop wearing.

They seem cheaper than a Rolex, but the reality is they are not. If you can buy a Rolex new at retail, you won’t lose money on one, but one of these micro brands, you’ll likely lose at least 50% of what you paid.

Benefit is you won’t get stabbed for a micro brand though.

To get top £ for your watch - I have a bunch of high end watches with no sentimental value that I've been looking at selling since relocating back to the U.K. it has to be ''boxed and carded'', this basically means that the watch has to be in good original condition - obviously the better the condition the more valuable, has to have the original box - again the better the condition the more valuable, and all the ''case candy'' the paperwork which has a hell of a lot more in common with a cars service history log book than your average watch paperwork, which means the watch has a service history, and just like with cars authorised dealer service stamps at the right intervals, is far far more sought after than non authorised dealer services even if the services are carried out at the correct intervals - in fact this can detract from the value, as well as a warranty card.

With the above in mind, look at a Rolex Submariner, 2nd hand in near mint condition they can be found for between £7k - a 1990 model, and roughly £23k - a 2017 model, brand new they cost about £36k direct from Rolex - and there is no waiting list. Now a Rolex Submariner needs to be serviced at a minimum of once every 10 years - depending on use and believe it or not leaving them unused sitting in their boxes doing nothing unworn mean they need to be serviced more often, this costs a minimum of £800 and takes a minimum of 3 months, as in you have to send your watch back to Rolex then they work on it and at best you get it returned in 3 months if there is nothing wrong and it just needs the basic £800 service. So considering the original outlay cost of a Rolex Submariner, and the minimum £800 cost every decade - it actually used to cost less than £100 when I got my first Rolex. The best time to flip a Rolex is right after you buy it, and that's the same with the vast majority of high end watches, sure you hear about and see people selling a watch for 5, 6, even 7 figures, the reality is though, that is very much the exception rather than the rule, especially with brands like Rolex - sure there are exceptions within this like the ''Pepsi'' dials ''root beers'' and so forth, and other even more luxurious watches, all you hear about are the ''headline prices'', what the watch was bought for vs what is was sold for, you don't hear how much was spent over the years on services, things like insurance costs - bringing a £30+k watch into your house is going to increase your home and contents insurance costs even if you have proper safes for their secure storage. So for the vast majority of cases, a high end luxury watch is not a good investment, or retention of wealth, indeed it's as terrible one - I've recently been told that the bottom has dropped out of the market and it is now very much a buyers market, indeed it's a very risky investment, 70+% losses are extremely common, even with the most sought after luxury watch brands.

Now with the microbrands, sure your going to take a good hit on purchase price the second you pay for the watch, here's the thing though, the cost of owning and maintaining them is a fraction of what the big boy luxury brands of watches costs, even the microbrands that are using the same movements as the most sought after luxury watch brands. So your chances of breaking even, yet alone making a profit off of a micriobrand watch is much lower than that of the big boys luxury watch brands, your chances of losing a lot of money, and by this I mean % wise as well, is much much lower, when all of the costs of ownership are taken into account, even with the microbrands that make flagship Rolex models looked liked they're priced for peasants

And at least one person has to date been stabbed to death for a fake Turkey special Rolex, this happened very recently as it was in the news quite recently.

CavemanGrogg · February 29

I sort of agree with some of what you posted:

Sporky said:

Then Habring2, or Horage, or Grand Seiko. Not microbrands (as they're usually defined), because microbrands - almost by definition - don't have the resources or expertise to design a movement.

I wouldn't call brands like Habring2, Horage or Grand Seiko microbrands, small to medium sized in some cases, even large, but not microbrands. There are microbrand watches that use their own movements, though these are the '''pinnacle'' of microbrand watches, and I would not class Christopher Ward as a microbrand, they have more watch models than most microbrands make watches in a decade.

Sporky said:

Though I think you're missing a huge aspect of watchmaking - the finishing. GS, for instance, have excellent movements, but the Sallaz/Zaratsu polishing, the dials, the diamond cut hands... (some of which you get with Citizens "The Citizen" range) - that's what makes them specialm

Huge amounts of work and skill in doing those to the standard they do.

Anordain made it big on their dials - all hand enamelled; even with highly skilled enamellers a significant proportion go wrong. No-one cares what the movement is in one of those.

These are more ''fashion watches'' than ''watches'' to me, the appeal of them is more their aesthetics than their mechanics and accuracy, like Hubolts - which in my opinion are ''rich men Swatches''.

Sporky · February 29

Habring2 make 200 watches a year - they're a nanobrand. GS are far bigger.

I think you're missing the point on GS though; they have amazing movements. The quartz ones are some of the mist accurate in the world at about 10 seconds a year (contrary to popular opinion, most quartz watches aren't very accurate because temperature and shape affects the crystals). The high-beat mechanicals are a step above yer average automatic movement - they're part of the reason why COSC isn't open to Japanese watchmakers - and the Spring Drive is an engineering marvel.

If you really want accuracy, and ignoring the radio-linked and GPS stuff, Citizen is the way to go. The Japanese market only "The Citizen" range is mostly 5 seconds a year, with calibre 0100 being 1 second a year.

Mine is a lowly 5 second a year one, but it's very pretty, and has non-hacking jumping hour for travel (ie you can adjust the hour without moving the minutes or stopping the seconds). Also, non-watch people have no idea what it is, and watch people have no idea what it is.

I'd point out that there's a huge advantage to a watch with an ETA or Seiko or Selita or similar movement - they are cheaper and easier to service and repair than an in-house one.

CavemanGrogg · February 29

Sporky said:

Habring2 make 200 watches a year - they're a nanobrand. GS are far bigger.

I think you're missing the point on GS though; they have amazing movements. The quartz ones are some of the mist accurate in the world at about 10 seconds a year (contrary to popular opinion, most quartz watches aren't very accurate because temperature and shape affects the crystals). The high-beat mechanicals are a step above yer average automatic movement - they're part of the reason why COSC isn't open to Japanese watchmakers - and the Spring Drive is an engineering marvel.

If you really want accuracy, and ignoring the radio-linked and GPS stuff, Citizen is the way to go. The Japanese market only "The Citizen" range is mostly 5 seconds a year, with calibre 0100 being 1 second a year.

Mine is a lowly 5 second a year one, but it's very pretty, and has non-hacking jumping hour for travel (ie you can adjust the hour without moving the minutes or stopping the seconds). Also, non-watch people have no idea what it is, and watch people have no idea what it is.

I'd point out that there's a huge advantage to a watch with an ETA or Seiko or Selita or similar movement - they are cheaper and easier to service and repair than an in-house one.

I'm ignoring quartz movements, everything battery powered, not everything self powered, or restricting it to mechanical self powered. So for example I'm not ignoring Citizens Eco Drive movements though I am ignoring basically Casio's entire digital range of self powered watches basically what Casio call their Solar Powered watches thought not entirely ignoring digital element for example Citizen maKe a number of Eco Drive powered watches that have digital elements/features in the face where as with Casio the same design is powered by a battery that ultimately in the case of their Solar Powered watches requires charging via a specific light source. And as for what I'm defining as a ''good watch'', I'm talking about self powered watches made by brands that are known for making watches, so not watches by brands like Hugo Boss, Armani, and so forth, but brands that are known for being watch makers, that cost between £200 and £1500 - and anything ''better'' than good costing upwards of £1500 and yes I know there are going to be ''gems'' and outliers that break or even smash this price/quality distinction/definition. And as far as defining what a micro/nano, small, medium, and large brands/manufacturers/modders/customizers are,in order, manufactures less than 100 watches as year, manufacturers up to 500 watches a year, manufacturers up to 1000, manufacturers over 1000 watches a year. Now I know with the type of watches, or to be more specific type of movements, or to be even more specific the way in which the watch is powered, accuracy is being sacrificed, a mechanical automatic watch is never going to be as accurate as a battery powered quartz watch, or other forms or powered watch, if that was your primary requirement for a watch, you wouldn't look at any form of ''self powered'' watches. or movements.

It would have perhaps been better for me to for the premise of me starting this thread. My neighbour's teenage watch nerd son, has recently got me questioning, maybe even going so far as to reconsidering my choice of watch and that even a watch with a mechanical movement such as the Seiko NH35 automatic movement, is far far more convenient and even reliable than, as he puts it, my ''teenager's watch'' . And by convenient and reliable, I mean for somebody like me, somebody who only wants one watch that is suitable for everything and all occasions, one that gets put on and taken off a little as possible as in once I put it on that's it it stays on no taking it off to adjust it and sure as hell to replace things like batteries, and doesn't need it to be up to the billionth of a second accurate. And his dad's interest in nano/microbrand watches, has got me curios if there was anybody here who was also into smaller brand watches, generally to see what's out there, not really the sort of watches that the neighbour's son makes where he sources all the individuals parts and complete movements and builds himself a watch much like a parstcaster - in some cases using parts from a single brand like Seiko to essentially make a custom 1 off Seiko or even combing brands like Seiko and Citizen parts to make a ''bastard watch'', though I do find them interesting.

Sporky · March 1

A COSC or equivalent mechanical watch is more accurate than a cheap quartz. Even a standard Seiko automatic is generally good for 5 seconds a day (though they specify - 10 to +20 from memory).

I'm not sure I understand how Eco Drive, which uses solar cells to charge a battery, is distinct from Casio's Tough Solar, which uses solar cells to charge a battery.

I don't think I've ever seen an Eco Drive with a digital or hybrid display - can you point at a model?

I'm fine with quartz if it's interesting. Calibre 0100, for example, is more interesting to me than yet another Selita with a brushed rotor. For me it's the whole watch that matters.

AK99 · March 1

Sporky said:

I'd point out that there's a huge advantage to a watch with an ETA or Seiko or Selita or similar movement - they are cheaper and easier to service and repair than an in-house one.

Service costs round here seem to have exploded round here of late.

I've a couple of vintage watches with ETA 1256 movements in them - bog standard automatic. Getting quotes here of €200-€250 for a basic service.

Anybody any feel for what costs are like over your side of the water there these days ?

mo6020 · March 1

I have a couple of watches from military associated microbrands. One from Sangin Instruments in the US, and a regimental special edition from Elliot Brown.

They're both good watches, and seem near indestructible, but they don't get as much wrist time as my swiss watches and my Seamaster has proven to be equally bullet proof in the 10 years I've had it.

Sporky · March 1

Help me with a quandary, watch but not microbrand related.

Do I get a Casio Oceanus S100, or a green Christopher Ward The Twelve Ti next?

Kittyfrisk · March 1

Sporky said:

Help me with a quandary, watch but not microbrand related.

Do I get a Casio Oceanus S100, or a green Christopher Ward The Twelve Ti next?

They are both going to be good watches & I borderline prefer the simplicity of the Casio, but... I don't like the 'Tough Mvt.' text on the face of the Casio, no matter how descriptive it is of the movement.

Sporky · March 1

Imteresting. I don't have a "nice" green watch (I do love my Citizen Promaster Tough, but it's a dog-walking and workshop watch), so I was a bit hoping that CW wouldn't do The Twelve in green.

The Casio I like for being quite smart, but not obvious. And you'll never get mugged for a Casio - even an eight grand G-Shock...

CavemanGrogg · March 1

Sporky said:

A COSC or equivalent mechanical watch is more accurate than a cheap quartz. Even a standard Seiko automatic is generally good for 5 seconds a day (though they specify - 10 to +20 from memory).

That's pretty much the conclusion that I've come to, though personally I'd prefer something certified to +/- 4 seconds a day, which according to the people I'm speaking to about this, and the research that I've been doing, puts a watch, specifically a ''self powered'' watch, in the top 4% of watches when it comes to accuracy, though I wouldn't say no to one rated to +/- 2 seconds a day.

Sporky said:

I'm not sure I understand how Eco Drive, which uses solar cells to charge a battery, is distinct from Casio's Tough Solar, which uses solar cells to charge a battery.

I originally thought that Citizen's Eco Drive and Casio's Tough Solar, were for lack of a better term, ''the same technology'' under a different name, however the neighbour and his son have proved me wrong, and I actually conducted an experiment to see for myself. In short the Eco Drive's solar cells can be charged, power a watch, from any source of light, even a Philips Hue GU10 dimmed down to 1%. Where as Casio's Tough Solar really does require access to daylight - or at least both very expensive to buy and even more expensive to run HID lighting, to charge or power the watch. And incidentally while my Casio was by no means the cheapest watch I conducted the experiments that I was talked into conducting - that was actually a automatic Swatch and it cost less than a quarter of the price of the Casio that I wear, it had by far, and I mean so shockingly short and well below the quoted power reserve, that I actually tested it several times, making sure to follow the manual, even YouTube videos on how to maximise the power reserve - less than 3 days with every energy saving feature possible used with no exposure to sunlight from 100% battery the manual and even website states a 18 month power reserve from a fully charged battery with all power saving features tuned on and turning on all the power saving features really negatively effects that watch everything from it's time telling to it's most basic features like the alarm, to advanced features, everything is so negatively effected that the watch becomes all but useless when every single power saving feature is engaged.

Sporky said:

I don't think I've ever seen an Eco Drive with a digital or hybrid display - can you point at a model?

They do though there are not many models, the current one is the Promaster Skyhawk A.T, I don't have this one, the one I have is called something like the ''Manta'', ''Ray'', or perhaps even the ''Manta Ray'', it's black with red highlights on the case, unidirectional dial, diver themed though not a divers watch it's rated to 100 meters, has red stitching highlights on the leather strap.

Sporky said:

I'm fine with quartz if it's interesting. Calibre 0100, for example, is more interesting to me than yet another Selita with a brushed rotor. For me it's the whole watch that matters.

It's matter of preference for me, but if I'm buying a watch, I'll never buy a quartz one. I'm by no means a watch snob, I wear a Casio everyday, though after ''putting a bunch of watches though their paces'' this may change, I'm still experimenting, seeing what watches I have available to me that I would actually wear as a ''put on and never take off unless absolutely required watch'', or buy myself another watch, I just don't associate a watch with a quartz movement, no matter how accurate it is, or expensive it is - I personally won't spend over £200 on a watch with a quartz movement if I was ever to buy one, as a ''good quality watch''.

Sporky said:

Imteresting. I don't have a "nice" green watch (I do love my Citizen Promaster Tough, but it's a dog-walking and workshop watch), so I was a bit hoping that CW wouldn't do The Twelve in green.

The Casio I like for being quite smart, but not obvious. And you'll never get mugged for a Casio - even an eight grand G-Shock...

People have been mugged for Casio watches, not just G-Shocks, and a few people have been robbed/mugged of their G-Shocks at Mudd Runner, Ironman events, and even while at the gym.

AK99 · March 2

CavemanGrogg said

It's matter of preference for me, but if I'm buying a watch, I'll never buy a quartz one. I'm by no means a watch snob, I wear a Casio everyday, though after ''putting a bunch of watches though their paces'' this may change, I'm still experimenting, seeing what watches I have available to me that I would actually wear as a ''put on and never take off unless absolutely required watch'', or buy myself another watch, I just don't associate a watch with a quartz movement, no matter how accurate it is, or expensive it is - I personally won't spend over £200 on a watch with a quartz movement if I was ever to buy one, as a ''good quality watch''.

I would generally have been of the same view..but have now softened especially wrt chronographs. The cost of servicing mechanical versions of the d@mn things is outrageous nowadays. I sold my auto Speedmaster recently after 20 years of ownership, and bought a Lunar Bulova with the high frequency quartz movement (which is probably more accurate than the Speedie) for about 1/3 the cost of a replacement chronometer module for the little Speedmaster, or a full blown rebuild on the bigger Pro model.

I think on the 'normal' (non chronograph) watches, I could also be tempted by one of Sporky's Citizen Chronomaster quartzes with the fancy zaratsu finishing. Was looking at one of those from the States for just over $1000 used recently. Hell of a watch for a fraction of the GS and Rolex prices.

stickyfiddle · March 2

Am I the only one who buys watches just because I like how they look?

Neil · March 2

stickyfiddle said:

Am I the only one who buys watches just because I like how they look?

I'm a collector but I think everyone does.

I like vintage watches with the classic look.

Image: https://i.ibb.co/BnP4X8g/640909797096a4a98d618696b3237f245cf7045ff227823945f23e95.jpg

Sporky · March 2

AK99 said:

I think on the 'normal' (non chronograph) watches, I could also be tempted by one of Sporky's Citizen Chronomaster quartzes with the fancy zaratsu finishing. Was looking at one of those from the States for just over $1000 used recently. Hell of a watch for a fraction of the GS and Rolex prices.

I very puffy heart love mine. The finishing is exquisite - genuinely Grand Seiko level through a loupe. Hard to take a good photo of though. This is the best I've managed, but it doesn't quite get the washi paper dial.

stickyfiddle said:

Am I the only one who buys watches just because I like how they look?

No, and that's a perfectly sensible approach. I do like some clever engineering in there too, whether it's somehow telling the time with springs and levers, or the handvrealignmentbof the Oceanus movement (three tiny wheels behind the hands, with a light that shines through when they're correctly aligned, and software to jiggle them into perfect alignment). Or SpringbDrive, which is just so clever, and gives an absolutely smooth second hand sweep.

Mostly looks though, which is why The Twelve is under consideration.

Grogg - if your Casio is only doing three days, and is fussy about light source, it probably has a duff battery. Has it been left uncharged for long at any point?

BluesLover · March 2

Does anyone ever use all the fancy chronograph functions, and rotating bezels and stuff. Or are they just an affectation, for show?
I prefer a plain, easy to read watch. One that just tells the time, without even a date. Also, one that's not too big. 36mm feels about right for me.
My favourite watch is my 1960's Omega. Hand wound, just tells the time. Understated and elegant. The opposite of bling.

thermionic · March 2

I use the timing bezel on my dive watches daily. For cooking - timing pasta, rice etc.

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