New laws for Rosewood

ChrisMusic · January 2017

There is a bit more discussion in this earlier thread too

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/91662/new-wood-rules-cites-regs-from-january#latest

gavin_axecaster · January 2017

I rang APHA before Christmas to get clarification - obviously in my case it's for necks, not complete guitars. From what I can tell the regulations will apply for either.
Right now the EU hasn't actually got the rules in place, so no import license required. However anything coming into the EU now requires the correct export license from the departure country.
EU Inter-state movement is expected to restriction free once the regulations are put in place.
I assume for musicians touring they will have to jump through whatever hoops have previously been in effect for BRW.
Don't bother trying to personally import a guitar with any rosewood on it from outside the EU now - without the export permit, it will not clear customs.
Here's my full blog post on the situation.
http://axecaster.co.uk/blog/?p=3201

RaymondLin · January 2017

gavin_axecaster said:

I rang APHA before Christmas to get clarification - obviously in my case it's for necks, not complete guitars. From what I can tell the regulations will apply for either.
Right now the EU hasn't actually got the rules in place, so no import license required. However anything coming into the EU now requires the correct export license from the departure country.
EU Inter-state movement is expected to restriction free once the regulations are put in place.
I assume for musicians touring they will have to jump through whatever hoops have previously been in effect for BRW.
Don't bother trying to personally import a guitar with any rosewood on it from outside the EU now - without the export permit, it will not clear customs.
Here's my full blog post on the situation.
http://axecaster.co.uk/blog/?p=3201

So Brexit means you can't buy a guitar from Thomann's anymore without the correct paperwork.

gavin_axecaster · January 2017

That won't matter until we have officially left the EU.
Until then we remain full members with all rights/freedoms.

RaymondLin · January 2017

gavin_axecaster said:

That won't matter until we have officially left the EU.
Until then we remain full members with all rights/freedoms.

Yes I know that...but my point is POST Brexit, I don't mean today.

mgaw · January 2017

anyone want to buy a strat BRW and Flamed maple neck?

mgaw · January 2017

RaymondLin said:

That does mean harder to buy a guitar from the US now, especially used. as I don't think any guitar sold before now comes with any kind of paperwork. I've imported 3 guitars from the states and none has any wood paperwork.

right minefield being created here by the powers that be...i agree with @guitars4you it should start from now going forward, the trees that are now guitars aint going to turn back into trees any time soon.

Danielsguitars · January 2017

I've emailed allied lutherie in the state's to see if I can get paperwork for Amazon rosewood they sell

I've bought some in the past, he said he's trying to sort it out but they've had that over 10 years

It wasn't a problem shipping with that before and now it is

I blame the bloody rich Chinese buying loads of the stuff just because they can, they don't give a crap about anybody or anything including whole forests, they want to show everyone how stinking rich they are, what a bloody waste

Very communist if you ask me

Neil · January 2017

customkits said:

I've emailed allied lutherie in the state's to see if I can get paperwork for Amazon rosewood they sell

I've bought some in the past, he said he's trying to sort it out but they've had that over 10 years

It wasn't a problem shipping with that before and now it is

I blame the bloody rich Chinese buying loads of the stuff just because they can, they don't give a crap about anybody or anything including whole forests, they want to show everyone how stinking rich they are, what a bloody waste

Very communist if you ask me

Exactly.

While CITES are getting all uppity about slivers of rosewood used on guitars the Chinese are having sideboards etc made out of the stuff.

Fuengi · January 2017

It does actually say this in the article:

"Rosewood is also used to make some musical instruments, such as guitars, but the new rules will not prevent musicians travelling with their instruments."

matone · January 2017

GSPBASSES said:

Rabs said:

The sad thing is it seems they have lumped all the Rosewood species together in order to help the customs people so they don't have to identify the species... Where as this probably is all about Brazilian Rosewood...
And sorry.. I didn't notice the previous discussions... Still its a pretty important subject so I guess if other people missed it then the more who know about this the better..

Not quite, is doubtful if any Brazilian rosewood is moving around these days, as it's been on the forbidden list for nearly 20 years. This is all about the Chinese stripping several far Eastern countries of the rosewood timber that's growing wild, in particular Vietnam.

The good news. One of the main importers of rosewood into the UK (Timberline) can supply the correct certificates to prove that his rosewood is legal. This also includes David Dykes, who can also supply the correct certificates.

The bad news when you apply for the certificate to go with the instrument your exporting. It will cost approximately £50 , whereas in Europe it is 20 euros and in America, I believe it is 15 dollars. Even worse, it can take up to 3 months to get the necessary paperwork. When I enquired about this, I also asked if the £50 covered the whole export order of guitars or did I have to pay £50 for a certificate for each guitar. I'm still waiting for an answer on this. .

Strange how there is always a fundraising venture attached to legislated control..................

ICBM · January 2017

Neil said:

While CITES are getting all uppity about slivers of rosewood used on guitars the Chinese are having sideboards etc made out of the stuff.

I'll believe it when it happens, but at face value the recent Chinese government announcement that they're going to ban the ivory trade is a major step in the right direction. If they do the same for other endangered species it will destroy most of the market for poaching and illegal logging worldwide. Hopefully someone is lobbying them hard to do so.

Of course they also have a major problem with corruption in enforcement too, so I'm not expecting miracles...

guitars4you · January 2017

Just arrived as a press release within the trade

The MIA will attend a key meeting with CITES/Defra on 12th January followed by an international meeting facilitated by NAMM at the NAMM Show on January 18th.

The information below has been sent to the authorities in response to the many communications we have had with members across the industry (many thanks to so many of you for helping and getting involved).

The comments below were followed by a large number of more specific questions and queries that urgently need answering.

We will let you know as soon as any clarity emerges!

The overriding concerns from our industry involve:

The high level of administration in meeting the new requirements for newly-protected materials
The high levels of license cost in meeting the new requirements (especially in relation to the low selling costs of many instruments)
The desire for possible exclusions for small industries (ie ours) dealing with high volumes, but small physical amounts of protected materials
The real concerns about selling second-hand products with no hope of supporting historical paperwork
The apparent lack of harmonisation between different territories and the uncertainty this creates in how to proceed
The high levels of administration (for Defra etc) in actually dealing with the levels of applications
Lack of clarity on the Musical Instrument Certificate (and how to get it and be sure it will be “honoured” around the World)

DamianP · January 2017

My main concern is exporting rather than importing. 99% of my work goes overseas. the majority to the US.

I have enough rosewood that I'm sure the mechanisms for import certification will be established by the time I need to order more.
Of more pressing concern is the registration of my current stocks and, most importantly, export certificates for the guitars I will need to ship in the next few weeks.

I'll call them now and report back.

guitars4you · January 2017

DamianP said:

My main concern is exporting rather than importing. 99% of my work goes overseas. the majority to the US.

I have enough rosewood that I'm sure the mechanisms for import certification will be established by the time I need to order more.
Of more pressing concern is the registration of my current stocks and, most importantly, export certificates for the guitars I will need to ship in the next few weeks.

I'll call them now and report back.

waiting with interest

Rabs · January 2017

guitars4you said:

Just arrived as a press release within teh trade
The MIA will attend a key meeting with CITES/Defra on 12th January followed by an international meeting facilitated by NAMM at the NAMM Show on January 18th.

Yes I got this mail too... all very confusing...

And yes I am also wanting to know in terms of if I happen to sell a guitar overseas..... I guess we will have to wait a bit and see what happens.

Neil · January 2017

So this would be a problem for anybody over here buying from Reverb etc in the US?

DamianP · January 2017

guitars4you said:

DamianP said:

My main concern is exporting rather than importing. 99% of my work goes overseas. the majority to the US.

I have enough rosewood that I'm sure the mechanisms for import certification will be established by the time I need to order more.
Of more pressing concern is the registration of my current stocks and, most importantly, export certificates for the guitars I will need to ship in the next few weeks.

I'll call them now and report back.

waiting with interest

Rabs said:

guitars4you said:

Just arrived as a press release within teh trade
The MIA will attend a key meeting with CITES/Defra on 12th January followed by an international meeting facilitated by NAMM at the NAMM Show on January 18th.

Yes I got this mail too... all very confusing...
And yes I am also wanting to know in terms of if I happen to sell a guitar overseas..... I guess we will have to wait a bit and see what happens.

I've spent a not so merry few hours wading through the govt website which raised a few questions which I put to a very helpful person at the APHA.
Most of the information is available here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports

From a builders perspective, as far as I can tell the situation is as follows.

Unlike other EU countries there are no plans to require registration of current stocks of Rosewood.

To export a guitar you need to complete form FED0172 and enclose documentation that either proves that you purchased the wood pre 1/1/17 or that it was legally imported after that date.

It seems that they understand that providing a country of origin for existing stocks might be difficult although it will be easier if such information were available. The country it was purchased from is likely to be sufficient for now.

It is regarded as a re-export therefore the fee is £59 per application. If shipping multiple guitars to the same address then the fee is £59 plus £1.50 per additional guitar.

I have a guitar which will be ready to ship to the US in a few weeks so I plan to get an application in asap.

Of course the good thing is that they aren't yet in a position to issue certificates so all I can do is wait. They hope that it will be possible by early Feb.

IvisonGuitars · January 2017

Thanks @DamianP thats very informative.

Rabs · January 2017

Yes, thank you DamianP very helpful...

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New laws for Rosewood

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