P90 pickups -vs- P90 Humbucker sized pickups ~ ~ ~ & other things too !!!

ChrisMusic · September 2013

P90 pickups vs P90 Humbucker sized pickups

How close are they?

Do they really sound the same?

Does anyone here know the differences in how they sound?

Does anyone here know the differences in how they are made?

Oh, and while we are at it, - is there a pickup which can switch between Strat type single coil and P90 sounds, ideally in P90 size?

Thanks

edit: & other things too !!! - this discussion has gone far and wide - long may it continue

ICBM · September 2013

The answers to all those questions are moot, because the different types of pickups fit in different guitars, which sound inherently different and make the comparison invalid.

I'm not trying to be funny!

To explain... I'm sure a P90-sized humbucker doesn't sound *exactly* like a P90, but you can't put a P90 in a humbucker guitar or a humbucker in a P90 guitar without substantial woodwork - so being able to directly compare the two is very difficult and from a practical point of view, irrelevant. And you can't compare a P90 and a Strat pickup directly because the "reference" P90 sound is from a Les Paul Junior, SG Special, ES330 etc - you can certainly put a P90 in a Strat if you want to but it will sound different just for that reason, even for the exact same pickup.

So choose the pickup based on what will fit in the guitar you have and sound roughly in the right ballpark, because anything else will require too much work and won't sound exactly like you think it will anyway.

The answer to the last part is no, by the way - the physical construction of the two pickups is so completely different that there's no way of making one which will accurately cover both sounds. The best you'll be able to do is a tappable P90, which might get you into the right ballpark. (You'll also need to switch the volume pot value at the same time or it will sound shrill.)

Hope that isn't too confusing!

bertie · September 2013

Chris, P90 sized humbucker or a humbucker sized P90 ? - serious point of clarification BTW.

Chuffola · September 2013

SD P-Rails will give you p90, single coil and humbucker sounds. I found the single coil Rail to be a bit weak and lifeless but the other two were excellent.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

The reason you can't make a P90 sound like a Strat is phisics

For starters,coil shape. Short, fat coils like a P90 produce more bass and mids than tall narrow coils like a Strat. Add to that the fact that a Strat's coil is actually wound around the magnets so is far more 'focused' whereas a P90 has two magnets mounted under the coil ... with the magnetic flux transferred through the coil and up to the strings by the steel pole screws. It's opposing polarity magnets 'soften' the sound. A coil tap can 'thin down' a P90 a little ... but the price will be 'weedier' sound when tapped compared to a proper Fender style pickup.

On whether a humbucker sized P90 sounds like a 'proper' P90 ... well us winders have got pretty close these days. The physical limitation is that a proper P90 bobbin is 1/2 inch longer than humbucker case so one needs to use a narrower bobbin to physically get it into the cover. In the early days, the ... er ... budget makers like GFS, simply put one coil of a humbucker in a six pole piece shell. The bobbin was too small to hold the 10,000 turns plus pf 42awg wire needed to make a proper sounding P90 ... so they swapped up to thinner wire ... once again changing the sound. Then many manufacturers took to simply cutting the ends off real P90 bobbins. Still impossible to get as much wire as you really would want in the coil without fouling the cover ... but for lower output 'classic' style P90s this works fairly well (but always check if the maker has used 42awg wire ... cos it won't sound right if he hasn't).
Lastly on the high end and 'boutique' bucker sized 90s ... like BK or for that matter my own (plug plug) we make our bucker P90 bobbins from scratch ... thus being able to make them a bit taller to take the full load of wire that a real P90 can. Being about 1/16 of an inch taller makes the coil sound a fraction more cutting (and it is only a fraction) but that can either be adjusted with 'softer' magnets ... or some people actually prefer this tiny treble boost ... after all it can be rolled off on your amp rig.
Summing up we can get pretty effing close to a real p90 in bucker guise ... and in fact most people won't be able to hear the difference.

octatonic · September 2013

Paul Reed Smith talks about the size of the 'string sensing' area of a pickup with regards to humbuckers and single coils.

I have Harmonic Designs Z90's in a couple of things- they are a P90 style in a humbucker casing.

They are excellent pickups and sound approximately like P90's, certainly more like P90's than they do humbuckers.

Not all P90's sound the same of course so how close the Z90's are to the various different P90's is quite subjective.

Some of my favourite guitars have been ones where I put something unexpected in a guitar with something else.

One of my Tele's has a Harmonic Designs S90 (P90 in a Tele bridge pickups) with a Lollartron (Lollar's take on a Filtertron in a humbucker casing).

The two pickups together sound really unique and it gives the guitar an interesting voice.

What I'm saying is try a few different things and see where it takes you.

ChrisMusic · September 2013

Cheers ICBM, I am doing a couple of projects, and therefore I have the luxury of routing to take a P90 if I really want to, or to leave the flexibility of HB routes. I am not sure if there is the possibility of routing for both, and still having enough meat to screw HB pickup rings into if I swap around to HBs, or if there are other issues in doing that.

P90 question- (edit: thanks @TheGuitarWeasel - looks like you already answered this one while I was thinking typing)

I realise that the P90 is longer than the humbucker and therefore there must be some compromises in fitting the windings in.

How do those windings fit anyway?

I assume that the compromise needed means that the P90HB will sound different. I know any description will be subjective, but you guys on here are pretty good at this sort of stuff.

And, yes, the same pickup in different body sounding different is still something I am still getting my head around.

On the Strat single coil thing, there seems to be some debate about how good split humbuckers are, as well as about splits on different models of HB. Strat pickups vary a lot too. It feels like I am entering a minefield here.

Sporky · September 2013

bertie said:

Chris, P90 sized humbucker or a humbucker sized P90 ? - serious point of clarification BTW.

I really like the look of P90 sized buckers. Minibuckers don't do it for me in the same way for some reason.

ChrisMusic · September 2013

Hey @Bertie, humbucker sized P90 is what I meant. Ambiguous moi ?

I know the other way is mini humbuckers, which I believe were designed to fit the P90 routes in a stockpile of Gibson bodies as P90s were not that fashionable in the late 60s early 70s.

I have never tried mini-humbuckers though.

Thanks for the recommendation and info @Chuffola, that was why I was interested in your LTD, but you did a great deal in that trade, how can I be sad to miss out when you scored such a beautiful guitar, hope you are enjoying it.

I assumed that the P-Rails were a compromise too, and maybe more of a compromise at that, but at least they fit HB routes. So I may also give them a try if I can get some.

ICBM · September 2013

ChrisMusic said:
It feels like I am entering a minefield here.

Not really. It's very easy if you give up the idea of wanting to make a pickup (or guitar) sound *exactly* like another one, and just go for something that sounds good and is in the same ballpark.

You simply can't do anything else - to take an extreme but common example, there is no humbucker that will make a Strat sound like a Les Paul - *especially* not an accurate 'PAF type'. The differences in the two guitars are far too large to make it possible, and actually using the same pickup will just show up how big the differences are. It's possible to make a humbucker in a Strat sound quite a lot like a Les Paul, but to do it you have to use a very different humbucker than the one which would give you the same sound in a Les Paul... if you see what I mean!

So unless you're building a complete replica of a particular type of guitar (eg a P90 Les Paul Special) there's no point in worrying about whether a humbucker-sized P90 sounds *exactly* like a normal P90 or not. Just choose the option which works best with the rest of the design.

To be honest I've never quite got the obsession of guitarists with 'nailing' particular sounds - maybe because I already knew there were so many ways in which it just can't be done. Getting a *good* tone in the right ballpark to work with the music you're playing is close enough and all you'll ever really achieve.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

For those of a curious disposition: right is a wound Oil City Firewatch P90 bobbin ... a bridge version with over 10,000 turns of 42awg wire. Left is a bridge position bobbin from one of my Oil City Mighty Ninety humbucker sized P90s ... also wound with the same number of turns of 42awg wire.

ChrisMusic · September 2013

TheGuitarWeasel said: For those of a curious disposition: ...

Count me curious, thanks for that. A picture really is worth a thousand words.

GuitarMonkey · September 2013

That's some beefy flatwork on the Mighty Ninety! Looks as if it's been hewn from slate.

ChrisMusic · September 2013

octatonic said: Paul Reed Smith talks about the size of the 'string sensing' area of a pickup with regards to humbuckers and single coils.

Hey @TheGuitarWeasel, could you cast a little wisdom to the masses about this please.

How does that 'string sensing' thing work ?

What part in that is magnetic field shape, and what part is the coil ?

And a BIG question for me is what happens if you put lots of pickups together, ie 3HBs or even the other PU types densely packed?

How does the magnetic interaction affect the quality of "tone" etc?

OilCityPickups · September 2013

GuitarMonkey said:

That's some beefy flatwork on the Mighty Ninety! Looks as if it's been hewn from slate.

One problem with all P90 style pickups is the bobbins deforming under the pressure of the wide, thin coils. I have a special machine faceplate for winding standard 90s. With the Mighty Ninety bobbins however that's unnecessary as the that stonkin great flatwork keeps everything perfectly in line

Oh it's 2.5mm vulcanised fibre, but slate sounds a good idea .....

ChrisMusic · September 2013

ICBM said:

ChrisMusic said: ...It feels like I am entering a minefield here.

Not really. It's very easy if you give up the idea of wanting to make a pickup (or guitar) sound *exactly* like another one, and just go for something that sounds good and is in the same ballpark...
...
To be honest I've never quite got the obsession of guitarists with 'nailing' particular sounds - maybe because I already knew there were so many ways in which it just can't be done. Getting a *good* tone in the right ballpark to work with the music you're playing is close enough and all you'll ever really achieve.

That is true, at the end of the day your "sound" is in the care of the guy on the desk and the need to create a good mix in a live venue. Exactly the same applies in the studio, the engineer controls your sound from mic-ing to mix, and the producer gets involved too. So whats on released for distribution is an interpretation of your tone at best. And then the radio compresses the ** out of it too !

It so shows when the guitarist or any other "...ist" in the band takes control of a mix, usually (but not always) to the detriment of the music. One reason for a good producer.

But the artistic side in us all wants the best materials to work with, whether that is beautiful paints, or beautiful sounds. That's part of the personal fulfilment of creating. So I guess "grail chasing" has its place, and its rewards.

ICBM · September 2013

ChrisMusic said:
But the artistic side in us all wants the best materials to work with, whether that is beautiful paints, or beautiful sounds. That's part of the personal fulfilment of creating. So I guess "grail chasing" has its place, and its rewards.

Definitely - but for me that means getting the best possible tone from any piece of equipment, not necessarily the exact same tone as a different piece of equipment. That's probably why I don't own any of the 'classic' guitars, amps or pedals really - to me the classics do sound good, but no more perfect than any other similar thing.

monquixote · September 2013

I really like humbucker sized P90s

They may or may not sound like the real thing, but they usually sound good and that's what counts.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

ChrisMusic said:

octatonic said: Paul Reed Smith talks about the size of the 'string sensing' area of a pickup with regards to humbuckers and single coils.

Hey @TheGuitarWeasel, could you cast a little wisdom to the masses about this please.
How does that 'string sensing' thing work ?
What part in that is magnetic field shape, and what part is the coil ?

And a BIG question for me is what happens if you put lots of pickups together, ie 3HBs or even the other PU types densely packed?
How does the magnetic interaction affect the quality of "tone" etc?

There are so many factors governing 'tone' and sound that come from the relationship between coil shape and flux or magnetic field strength and shape that I could take a whole books worth of space explaining it ... but here are a few very simplified potted highlights:
narrow coils 'sense' a very short length of string ... therefore the bass frequencies are to some extent 'filtered out' ... this is why Strat size mini humbuckers never have the response of a full sized pickup ... the coils are simply too narrow. Tall pickups allow more wire to sit close to the magnets or pole pieces ... in the strongest part of the flux ... this shifts their frequency response or 'resonant peak' up towards the treble end.
Then there is the effect of the gauge of wire used: this causes more confusion than practically anything else ... as the obsession people have with rating a pickup's output by it's electrical resistance is rendered totally meaningless when comparing pickups wound with different gauges of wire.
Finer wire allows more turns on a bobbin ... that allows more output within the same space ... at least in theory. Unfortunately finer wire has more resistance per turn than thicker wire ... so if you have two pickups wound with enough turns to get you to say 10k resistance ... one wound with 42awg and one with the much finer 43awg the one wound with 42awg will be miles louder or 'more powerful ... as it will have more turns. Turns matter not resistance! everyone got that?
Add to that you get something called the 'skin effect' that happens with finer wire: that is where the electrons start to prefer travelling along in the outside layers of the wire's diameter the finer you make the wire. This too filters out some frequencies ... though hand 'scatter' winding of pickups helps break up the 'skin effect'.
Oh and chuck into the mix the fact that the relative strength of a pickup's magnet will also effect tone.
No wonder many see pickup making as a bit of a dark art

Putting pickups in close proximity doesn't change things too much by the way ... but putting two magnets in proximity inside a pickup (like a P90) is a whole different ball game!

ChrisMusic · September 2013

I guess part of the problem for me is historical, long gap in playing, and now I want not only to make up for lost time, lost knowledge and lost music.

But it is one of those "grail quests" too…

The guitar I loved the best was my 1963 Les Paul / SG Junior. (as I wrote in 10 Questions discussion)

I didn't much like the shape of it, and I always wanted more variation in sound as it just had the one P90.

WOW what a sound that guitar had, acoustically (and I have only just found another that sounds that good, can't buy it though), and that one pickup growled and screamed, was melodic and kicked ass too.

The neck was fantastic, and as it was what I learned to play on back then, I got so used to a 63 thin profile, (definitely not current Gibson 60s) everything else just felt a bit wrong. I think I am largely over that now, but… (nostalgia trip)

Had a bundle of other guitars too from cheap Jap early 70s (where you took the pickup apart, and inside the humbucker was a cheap single coil - sounds like the GFS-90HB above) through to very good and very expensive Gibson LP customs, etc.

Hot rodded, customised stuff to hell and back as well, but that's another story.

The Junior was sold a long time ago. (long story, big mistake)

So I guess *that P90 sound* is still what I have in mind, it seems somewhat different to other make P90s.

- Do you know if thats correct, and what the differences are?

- Did Gibson do something differently?

Good point ICBM, "for me that means getting the best possible tone from any piece of equipment, not necessarily the exact same tone as a different piece of equipment." That does make a lot of sense, so I guess I'm 'guilty as charged'. That really is a good philosophy, I will take it on board and make it part of my life view, thanks.

Looks like ICBM is right on this too, it is a kind of an obsession, maybe I am chasing rainbows

But a great way to explore the soundscapes which available now too. So it's also a healthy part of the ongoing musical journey too.

octatonic · September 2013

@TheGuitarWeasel - how close would you say the following statement is to the truth?

"Guitar tone is 20% guitar and 80% amplifier."

I've seen many similar statements over the years.

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P90 pickups -vs- P90 Humbucker sized pickups ~ ~ ~ & other things too !!!

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