Helix LT is now available for order. Cut down version - ish.

Jonathanthomas83

+1

John_A

welshboyo said:

I know I bang on about them but for me the total game changer soundwise was the Ownhammer IR's, perhaps I need to revisit the onboard cabs, but it went from a needed to be tweaked sound to just being spot on with the OH IR.

I also use the Helix with both an amp and direct for recording/PA/FOH applications.

It getting to the point where its hard to justify to myself to drag out the amps to gigs - the feel of the Helix (and we are purely IEM no backline/monitoring) on the "direct" gigs is EXACTLY the same as my real Bogner.

I used to bang on about IR's too until I bought some patches from Choptone on a whim, I listened to their youtube demo and it sounded great!  There's nothing flash about the patched in most cases, an amp, cab, EQ and reverb but they sound stunning (amazing what some good ears can do) and they use the Helix cabs

Adamski

welshboyo said:

I know I bang on about them but for me the total game changer soundwise was the Ownhammer IR's, perhaps I need to revisit the onboard cabs, but it went from a needed to be tweaked sound to just being spot on with the OH IR.

I also use the Helix with both an amp and direct for recording/PA/FOH applications.

It getting to the point where its hard to justify to myself to drag out the amps to gigs - the feel of the Helix (and we are purely IEM no backline/monitoring) on the "direct" gigs is EXACTLY the same as my real Bogner.

Well this is music to my ears as we both own the Shiva. If the Helix can get me that tone, even 80% of it, I'd be happy! 


Thanks all all for the replies! 

Adamski

guitarfishbay said:

Adamski said:

Would people recommend this as a better solution for me than an AX8? 

My needs are - 
Main Amp for home use 
Main Amp for recording 
lightweight solution for rehearsal 
FX only for gigs, with my Bogner or Friedman as the 'Main' amp in that situation 
Backup for gigs. 

I guess they will both both do the same thing for me but the advantage of the Helix LT is it's cheaper and I can bang it on 0% finance and forget about it. Can't do that with the AX8 as I'm guessing it's bought from Fractal only. 

If you're needing to take finance out to buy either then probably the Helix LT.  It's not really worth getting in to additional debt just to get gear and it does all the Helix sounds for cheaper.  If it is only going to be a backup then I don't see the point in taking out finance for that, but it's your money at the end of the day.  Surely the current 0% credit cards offer longer terms than most shops anyway.

If you're recording focused then there's an argument for the Fractal.  258 amp models, a lot more tweakable, and IMO it just sounds better.  It saturates more like an amp, the low end is more weighty and follows the note (I only hear this in the Fractal and Kemper and it's a big factor for me), and the high end crunches up more naturally.   I'd also consider a Kemper for recording as I also think it sounds great, not clued up on prices but I thought it was cheaper than the Fractal last time I checked.

Helix owners may feel differently but this is how I've felt about it in every test I've heard comparing it to a Kemper or Axe FX 2 or real amp (including blind tests, .wavs etc).  I don't think it's a matter of flavour, I genuinely think the Fractal and Kemper perform better in certain areas.  Whether that is worth the money is another question all together.

If I was buying today I'd still find it hard to not buy a Helix LT just based on price.

This guy has done a lot of comparisons, here's his most recent one.



The difference in the dynamics in the clean and Dumble examples are pretty clear to me.  Likewise the Plexi, when he palm mutes the Helix it's not ballsy like you'd expect from that amp, the high end is aggressive but it's not as snarly.  The Fractal low end bounces more on the palm mutes and it snarls more on the chords.  It's not a small difference or a flavour thing to me but YMMV.  I don't understand how someone who can heard the difference in the HD vs Helix clip can't hear it again in that clip but at the end of the day it doesn't make a difference beyond just being my opinion.  

He's seemingly cut a lot of low end out of both metal clips but if you're interested in high gain Ola Englund did a blind test video.




As I said I'd happily use a Helix and would probably buy an LT today if I was looking for my first digital unit just because it is a fantastic price performance ratio - but if someone wants my opinion on tone I still think Kemper or Fractal sound better.  

Great info, thanks. I don't 'need' to take finance, I can buy it outright, but I'm in a fortunate position where I can 'write off' £100 or so a month most years on some gear or whatever so I tend to always take out a 0% offer and prefer to stick my money in savings where it can earn me something at the same time. Either that or my company has an incredible shares plan. 

fretmeister

fretmeister said:

dindude said:

TimmyO said:

dindude said:

timmysoft said:

digitalscream said:

@dindude - why not do a limited run for forum folk who want one, pre-order only? You might be able to squeeze enough out of it to make it worth it.

I think a lot of forum guys would happily pay a bit more for the exclusivity and personal touch.

I've no doubt that they are "worth" the amount for those who want quality - it really is a beautifully built case (they are made in Germany), but quick sums means it would be somewhere north of £150, and that really is with me taking very little out.

It's not *terribly* far off the price of this so it might fly ?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/thon_effect_case_for_line_6_helix.htm

I'll give it some thought and start a new thread if needed, rather than keep derailing this one. Not wholey convinced right now though, when I'm selling a board with a case, I can do the case for pretty much cost, but on its own it doesn't stack up very well.

Just seen Dan at the Gigrig deliver one of his sets up in one of these

https://www.schmidtarray.com/

There's isn't an off the peg Helix board, but they do custom stuff, and they do look amazing. Money is about the same too.

Just noticed.

The 158 Euro is not for the board - it's just for the lid of the board!!!

368 Euro for the cheapest one.

Blimey!

Drew_TNBD

Very smart decision by the Line 6 team in my view. Actually if I didn't already have a Helix, I think I'd be plonking money down for the LT. It does everything I would need and the hardware differences aren't enough to put me off!

Cabicular

Drew_TNBD said:

Very smart decision by the Line 6 team in my view. Actually if I didn't already have a Helix, I think I'd be plonking money down for the LT. It does everything I would need and the hardware differences aren't enough to put me off!

If I was super rich I'd buy one just to take to rehearsals in a light bag

Digital_Igloo

Teetonetal said:

@Digital_Igloo has said a number of times on TGP that creating a budget version of helix is not easy - would be interested to hear the thought process behind this one. I really, really would have preferred this over the full fat one - ticks every single box I need.

December 2014: So Helix and Helix Rack/Control are coming out next summer. We reaaaally hope people don't freak out over the $1500 price; if they happen to sell well we should follow it up with a $999 version with the exact same engine. Now what's the absolute bare minimum amount of hardware we can take out to get it to $999 and still make our margins? According to IdeaScale, forums, and gut instinct, what omissions will upset people the least?

That's pretty much where my head was at.

Cabicular

I think the balance with LT is just right
I like the scribble strips but intelligent use of the screen works just as well as far as I can seen
two loops is as much as I've ever used anyway
I've never seen the need for a separate headphone volume.
I haven't used the Mic input since the first 'incident'
Im curious why you still have the L2 link socket on it. At the moment it is virtually useless, so future plans?

Digital_Igloo

Cabicular said:

I think the balance with LT is just right
I like the scribble strips but intelligent use of the screen works just as well as far as I can seen
two loops is as much as I've ever used anyway
I've never seen the need for a separate headphone volume.
I haven't used the Mic input since the first 'incident'
Im curious why you still have the L2 link socket on it. At the moment it is virtually useless, so future plans?

L6 LINK? Does cool stuff with DT amps and L2/L3 speakers. Or it can be AES/EBU out. With a $10 XLR-F > RCA adapter, it can be S/PDIF out.

Cabicular

Digital_Igloo said:

Cabicular said:

I think the balance with LT is just right
I like the scribble strips but intelligent use of the screen works just as well as far as I can seen
two loops is as much as I've ever used anyway
I've never seen the need for a separate headphone volume.
I haven't used the Mic input since the first 'incident'
Im curious why you still have the L2 link socket on it. At the moment it is virtually useless, so future plans?

L6 LINK? Does cool stuff with DT amps and L2/L3 speakers. Or it can be AES/EBU out. With a $10 XLR-F > RCA adapter, it can be S/PDIF out.

What cool stuff does it do with L2 L3 speakers?
As far as I can see all it does is bypass the global Eq?

gibsongretschfan

guitarfishbay said:

Adamski said:

Would people recommend this as a better solution for me than an AX8? 

My needs are - 
Main Amp for home use 
Main Amp for recording 
lightweight solution for rehearsal 
FX only for gigs, with my Bogner or Friedman as the 'Main' amp in that situation 
Backup for gigs. 

I guess they will both both do the same thing for me but the advantage of the Helix LT is it's cheaper and I can bang it on 0% finance and forget about it. Can't do that with the AX8 as I'm guessing it's bought from Fractal only. 

If you're needing to take finance out to buy either then probably the Helix LT.  It's not really worth getting in to additional debt just to get gear and it does all the Helix sounds for cheaper.  If it is only going to be a backup then I don't see the point in taking out finance for that, but it's your money at the end of the day.  Surely the current 0% credit cards offer longer terms than most shops anyway.

If you're recording focused then there's an argument for the Fractal.  258 amp models, a lot more tweakable, and IMO it just sounds better.  It saturates more like an amp, the low end is more weighty and follows the note (I only hear this in the Fractal and Kemper and it's a big factor for me), and the high end crunches up more naturally.   I'd also consider a Kemper for recording as I also think it sounds great, not clued up on prices but I thought it was cheaper than the Fractal last time I checked.

Helix owners may feel differently but this is how I've felt about it in every test I've heard comparing it to a Kemper or Axe FX 2 or real amp (including blind tests, .wavs etc).  I don't think it's a matter of flavour, I genuinely think the Fractal and Kemper perform better in certain areas.  Whether that is worth the money is another question all together.

If I was buying today I'd still find it hard to not buy a Helix LT just based on price.

This guy has done a lot of comparisons, here's his most recent one.



The difference in the dynamics in the clean and Dumble examples are pretty clear to me.  Likewise the Plexi, when he palm mutes the Helix it's not ballsy like you'd expect from that amp, the high end is aggressive but it's not as snarly.  The Fractal low end bounces more on the palm mutes and it snarls more on the chords.  It's not a small difference or a flavour thing to me but YMMV.  I don't understand how someone who can heard the difference in the HD vs Helix clip can't hear it again in that clip but at the end of the day it doesn't make a difference beyond just being my opinion.  

He's seemingly cut a lot of low end out of both metal clips but if you're interested in high gain Ola Englund did a blind test video.




As I said I'd happily use a Helix and would probably buy an LT today if I was looking for my first digital unit just because it is a fantastic price performance ratio - but if someone wants my opinion on tone I still think Kemper or Fractal sound better.  

See to be fair that guy literally wants to have Fractals babies. He spent very little time with Helix, less dialling it in and he's using older firmware.

ive read some of his posts on other forums and find him and his, albeit very well produced, comparisons VERY lopesided 

guitarfishbay

I'm not sure I agree, but I don't own a Helix to know what he's doing wrong, and I've not read his posts as I tend to just post here. I'm not just basing my opinion on his comparison but clips from friends, other demo types etc. It's just my opinion at the end of the day.

It shouldn't be hard to dial any amp sim in really, as long as you've picked something suitable. People used to say that you needed to spend more time dialling in a Fractal but honestly at certain points real amps and even Kempers did sound better with less dialling in. Both Kemper and Fractal have improved since then, a lot of Fractal users (myself included) stick to basic controls now and don't use advanced parameters. That wasn't the case for me a year ago but it has improved. I'm sure Helix will too.

The talk of old FW applies to the Fractal too - that's on Quantum 6.02 and the current 7.02 has some pretty noticeable changes to speaker compression and breakup modelling, things which would have improved the clean/crunch sounds if used.

Jonathanthomas83

Agreed, I came in at 7.01 and I feel I've been spoilt because beyond matching the right IR, I barely have to touch many parameters in order to make things sound great. The Helix wont be far off that, but for now, I've been able to dial things the way I like them more so on the Fractal than I could the Helix.

siremoon

guitarfishbay said:

I'm not sure I agree, but I don't own a Helix to know what he's doing wrong, and I've not read his posts as I tend to just post here. I'm not just basing my opinion on his comparison but clips from friends, other demo types etc. It's just my opinion at the end of the day.

It shouldn't be hard to dial any amp sim in really, as long as you've picked something suitable. People used to say that you needed to spend more time dialling in a Fractal but honestly at certain points real amps and even Kempers did sound better with less dialling in. Both Kemper and Fractal have improved since then, a lot of Fractal users (myself included) stick to basic controls now and don't use advanced parameters. That wasn't the case for me a year ago but it has improved. I'm sure Helix will too.

The talk of old FW applies to the Fractal too - that's on Quantum 6.02 and the current 7.02 has some pretty noticeable changes to speaker compression and breakup modelling, things which would have improved the clean/crunch sounds if used.

FWIW this comment by Ben Adrian (who is the Helix modelling guru) appeared on TGP

"By Ola’s verbal description, I get the impression that he turned off the power amp simulation for both the Fractal AX8 and the Helix. I downloaded his patch and indeed found this to be true.

His reason for doing this was because he created an IR of his own cabinet using the tube power amp of the Mesa. While this will capture certain tonal aspects of the tube power amp, it certainly does not capture all of them. Plus, IRs don’t capture nonlinear elements. In short, both Helix and AX8 were essentially being played without the full, intended modeling process.

Sure, tone is essentially subjective, metal music is based around preamp distortion, and I’ve heard of plenty of situations where metal dudes intentionally will use only the preamp versions of the models. Still, a very important part of our modeling process was essentially left out.​"

guitarfishbay

And he did the same with the Fractal, so a vital part of their modelling was also left out.

At the end of the day I think the Helix sounds good, I just think there are other products I feel do things I like better.

But as I said there were points where I only thought real amps or Kempers could do what I liked - I didn't buy a Kemper because I didn't like the workflow (I wanted models, not to work with profiles someone else made as I was going all digital). I can also recognise people wouldn't buy a Fractal because they prefer the Helix workflow - especially if you tweak on unit and not with a computer editor...

Line 6 have been developing quickly and are ahead of the game in some areas (such as recent bass gear). So my opinion may change in time. Right now I don't hear the character I'd pick, however I know people who feel the opposite and prefer the Helix character. At the end of the day all these units are just tools to make music with, and there are a lot of aspects to using tools which mean different people have different priorities/preferences for choosing

gibsongretschfan

guitarfishbay said:

And he did the same with the Fractal, so a vital part of their modelling was also left out.

At the end of the day I think the Helix sounds good, I just think there are other products I feel do things I like better.

But as I said there were points where I only thought real amps or Kempers could do what I liked - I didn't buy a Kemper because I didn't like the workflow (I wanted models, not to work with profiles someone else made as I was going all digital). I can also recognise people wouldn't buy a Fractal because they prefer the Helix workflow - especially if you tweak on unit and not with a computer editor...

Line 6 have been developing quickly and are ahead of the game in some areas (such as recent bass gear). So my opinion may change in time. Right now I don't hear the character I'd pick, however I know people who feel the opposite and prefer the Helix character. At the end of the day all these units are just tools to make music with, and there are a lot of aspects to using tools which mean different people have different priorities/preferences for choosing

His IR's were made for use with his Fractal though. That was what I was trying to say earlier without having the time to go into much detail.

l freely admit that the fractal stuff sounds better pound for pound than the Helix stuff on YouTube demos. However I think the gap has closed massively in the last year.

Im going to summarise by the guys posts about his methods making his comparisons were a bit like "this is my favourite amp on the Fractal with my favourite settings... here's Helix with an amp that's kinda similar with everything set at noon"

monquixote

The online comparisons between Helix and Fractal don't tell the whole story.

My experience with Fractal stuff is that if you are prepared to spend a lot of time with the units and you really know what you are doing you can do amazing stuff, but I found creating patches to be an unenjoyable slog and it was taking me a whole evening to create 1 patch I was really happy with. 

The Helix UI makes it a joy to work with and I could get something close to what I was looking for within a few minutes even though I was much more experienced with the Fractal.

The upshot is that if I was Clarky or Drew with the skills and inclination to spend a long time on patches then the Axe might sound a bit better, (and that is might) but given the time I have and level of ability I know the results I would get from the Helix would be much better.

simonk

monquixote said:

The online comparisons between Helix and Fractal don't tell the whole story.

My experience with Fractal stuff is that if you are prepared to spend a lot of time with the units and you really know what you are doing you can do amazing stuff, but I found creating patches to be an unenjoyable slog and it was taking me a whole evening to create 1 patch I was really happy with. 

The Helix UI makes it a joy to work with and I could get something close to what I was looking for within a few minutes even though I was much more experienced with the Fractal.

The upshot is that if I was Clarky or Drew with the skills and inclination to spend a long time on patches then the Axe might sound a bit better, (and that is might) but given the time I have and level of ability I know the results I would get from the Helix would be much better.

Yeah, this.

guitarfishbay

gibsongretschfan said:

His IR's were made for use with his Fractal though. That was what I was trying to say earlier without having the time to go into much detail.

l freely admit that the fractal stuff sounds better pound for pound than the Helix stuff on YouTube demos. However I think the gap has closed massively in the last year.

I thought his IR was based on the position he picked with the amp.  Regardless the reason that video was posted is it was a blind test.  A person could easily have reasons to prefer any of those sounds, or equally they may not feel strongly enough to care there's a difference at all.

I don't agree the gap has closed massively, because I've not heard a Helix clip that's convinced me otherwise.

Even if the gap has - to what benchmark, where the Axe FX 2 was a year ago?  Looking at my downloads folder a year ago was Quantum 2.01, we're now at 7.02, with some major improvements along the way.  I don't know what boards you post on but I know multiple users on here only post on here, and there's not really much hype around any digital unit except the Helix these days.  If Fractal or Kemper have updates often people don't even post about it.  But all the products are continuously updating.  I'm not directing this comment at yourself, but it does feel in some ways that some Helix users see the product in a vacuum and aren't aware it's not the only unit getting improved - the same is true of many Kemper and Fractal users (especially on the Fractal board).

I recognise this is opinion and even though I feel I am objective I don't expect anyone to believe I am - mostly because a lot of people on forums are biased towards stuff they own, which is natural I guess.  I'm not especially tribal about my gear ownership.  I've got a hardware 1176 compressor clone in my studio rack and unless it's a lead vocal I just use plugin 1176's because the difference isn't big enough for the extra hassle - that's how I might feel about the Helix vs the Axe FX 2 in some situations, if I owned both...  I think the Fractal sounds better if we're picking on sound but for tweaking stuff on the fly at a gig the Helix design is more suited to that, and it still sounds good.