Helix LT is now available for order. Cut down version - ish.

Voxman

monquixote said:

It seems to be the case that whatever type of sound you are most familiar with is hardest to model.I suspect it's more that within that genre you are far more discerning.

You know, I think that makes absolutely perfect sense and is why we each have different views on modelling accuracy & comparisons with valve-amp feel.  For me its definitely the break-up, blues, classic rock and vintage crunch tones - I'm not a metal player and don't use tons of high gain requiring bottom end that shakes the foundations, so I'm less likely to appreciate the nuances of those tones compared to those that do...and I'm sure its vice-a-versa.   

EricTheWeary

There have been a couple of people who did some kind of blind tests ( I only know through links I've seen on here) and generally the results were, IIRC,  that listeners were less able to spot modelled tones with very clean or very high gain tones. So, that's where that's from in my head. Although wisdom given to @monquixote as I think he's pretty much right.

stickyfiddle

EricTheWeary said:

There have been a couple of people who did some kind of blind tests ( I only know through links I've seen on here) and generally the results were, IIRC,  that listeners were less able to spot modelled tones with very clean or very high gain tones. So, that's where that's from in my head. Although wisdom given to @monquixote as I think he's pretty much right.

But were those listeners crunchy blues/rock type players, or country pickers, or doom metalists? 

I'm another who always finds the clean/crunch stuff the most tricky to model, but completely agree with @monquixote. ;I couldn't tell a 98%-good metal tone from a 96%-good metal if they were signposted and lit with neon...

Aidanspaghetti

So what are the Marshall tones like for a high gain, riding the volume cleaning up kinda sound?
I've a Power station plus 2x12s, and a 4x12 so really debating getting one for przctice, recording etc....

Cabicular

Aidanspaghetti said:

So what are the Marshall tones like for a high gain, riding the volume cleaning up kinda sound?
I've a Power station plus 2x12s, and a 4x12 so really debating getting one for przctice, recording etc....

I play in a rock covers band
Van Halen, Rainbow, Zeppelin, G&R, Def Leppard
You get the idea
I use the line 6 modded 2204 with the Klon in the front and it is glorious

Drew_TNBD

People's perceptions are coloured by expectation.

I could mic up my 5150 and set the blue channel up to sound like a mid-gain tone, and then post it as a Helix clip and loads of people would say "see, told you it sounds shit for mid-gain toanz!"

gearaddict

I'm starting to wonder why I'm bothering to spend so much time, effort and money trying to find a way of making modelling technology work for me...I might just plug in one of the two valve amps and pedalboard I already have and have things effortlessly sound good

Aidanspaghetti

Cabicular said:

Aidanspaghetti said:

So what are the Marshall tones like for a high gain, riding the volume cleaning up kinda sound?
I've a Power station plus 2x12s, and a 4x12 so really debating getting one for przctice, recording etc....

I play in a rock covers band
Van Halen, Rainbow, Zeppelin, G&R, Def Leppard
You get the idea
I use the line 6 modded 2204 with the Klon in the front and it is glorious

Thanks for that.... Might just try the demo version of Native when it comes out and purchase on strength of that then....

gibsongretschfan

Aidanspaghetti said:

Cabicular said:

Aidanspaghetti said:

So what are the Marshall tones like for a high gain, riding the volume cleaning up kinda sound?
I've a Power station plus 2x12s, and a 4x12 so really debating getting one for przctice, recording etc....

I play in a rock covers band
Van Halen, Rainbow, Zeppelin, G&R, Def Leppard
You get the idea
I use the line 6 modded 2204 with the Klon in the front and it is glorious

Thanks for that.... Might just try the demo version of Native when it comes out and purchase on strength of that then....

The Mod2204 is absolutely killer.

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

People's perceptions are coloured by expectation.

I could mic up my 5150 and set the blue channel up to sound like a mid-gain tone, and then post it as a Helix clip and loads of people would say "see, told you it sounds shit for mid-gain toanz!"

remember that "aggressive clean" we got from the Axe-II with the Herbert ch2 model..
beautiful and awesome

NelsonP

I've been playing through my nearly 30 year old mesa this weekend.  I don't get a chance to do it often,  but it is clearly better than any modeller, latest generation included.

Hard to put your finger on exactly why.  I tried my amplifire into the fx return and it's just not the same.  Something in the compression, harmonic overtones, touch responsiveness and feel that is just impossible to match. 

The new modellers are brilliant.  I love them for their simplicity of set up,  the quality of the sound, their range of effects and flexibility.  

For now a great valve amp still wins, but the margins are getting smaller. 

Sporky

Personally I find the navel-gazing and cork-sniffing weird. I have no interest in checking whether my Helix can exactly cop the sounds from my Cornell. It sounds excellent and lets me create sounds that couldn't be done with a conventional pedalboard - at all. At that point I'm much more interested in playing than comparing.

monquixote

Sporky said:

Personally I find the navel-gazing and cork-sniffing weird. I have no interest in checking whether my Helix can exactly cop the sounds from my Cornell. It sounds excellent and lets me create sounds that couldn't be done with a conventional pedalboard - at all. At that point I'm much more interested in playing than comparing.

Wisdom for this

They are all so close it's far more about workflow, fun and creativity.

Clarky

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Clarky said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

@Clarky where can I listen to your music and learn about your setup?

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/axe2-preset-building.50243/page-32

from post 635, and a detailed description continues from there on across a few more pages [in amongst the chat]
my latest presets have evolved and become a little more capable since then [and there is now a 4th XP pedal providing further functionality], but the core behaviour is essentially the same.
anything you hear of me in the studio will not feature the control behaviours of these presets because it's not needed.. 
in the studio I record each different guitar tone / part independently and do not morph between them..
the tone morphing I do is just for live stuff and brings a little something extra to live performances that is not on the albums..
I rather like the idea that after the albums are all done and dusted, a live show can still pull out a few additional 'aces' if you know what I mean..

when we play our next UK date I'll shout and then you'll be able to see / hear all this for yourself if you're able to get there..
alternatively, if the nice Fretboard folks are kind enough to invite me again to the next Guitar show in Birmingham, I'll have my Axe-FX there with me.. and I'll happily take you through the presets in person face to face and show you how they work..

That's incredibly kind of you, thank you! I'll check out the Fractal forum. All the best!

no worries matey.. it'll be a pleasure..

digitalscream

monquixote said:

Sporky said:

Personally I find the navel-gazing and cork-sniffing weird. I have no interest in checking whether my Helix can exactly cop the sounds from my Cornell. It sounds excellent and lets me create sounds that couldn't be done with a conventional pedalboard - at all. At that point I'm much more interested in playing than comparing.

Wisdom for this

They are all so close it's far more about workflow, fun and creativity.

I've been banging that drum for ages - it's only now, though, with the advent of the Helix LT and the Headrush (maybe) that all of the usability and flexibility has come down to the sub-£1k price point. I'm sticking with my preamp board for now (since I'm going to have to buy a car soon, as well as spending a fuckton of money on the house), but as soon as my next bonus comes in...I can see a Helix LT as a Christmas present to myself.

Clarky

Sporky said:

Personally I find the navel-gazing and cork-sniffing weird. I have no interest in checking whether my Helix can exactly cop the sounds from my Cornell. It sounds excellent and lets me create sounds that couldn't be done with a conventional pedalboard - at all. At that point I'm much more interested in playing than comparing.

absolutely…
I'm not actually all that bothered about 'how real' the modelling is..
if it sounds 60% real or 99.999% real, I don't particularly care..
that fact that the Axe-II is supposed to be impossibly close to the real thing is kinda cool I guess
all I care about is that I can get tones that I really like and that have all the real-time control capabilities to enable me to do my thing exactly the way I need to do it..

Clarky

monquixote said:

Sporky said:

Personally I find the navel-gazing and cork-sniffing weird. I have no interest in checking whether my Helix can exactly cop the sounds from my Cornell. It sounds excellent and lets me create sounds that couldn't be done with a conventional pedalboard - at all. At that point I'm much more interested in playing than comparing.

Wisdom for this

They are all so close it's far more about workflow, fun and creativity.

in addition to what you sound like and can do live, a killer bonus is what you sound like and can do in the studio…
I know without any doubt that I could never make guitar recordings to such a high standard without the Axe-II in my humble lil' studio..
not even remotely close..

guitarfishbay

Yeah for recording at home I prefer to use my Axe FX 2 and impulses over a real amp and cab. If I could put the cab in another room I might change my mind, but being able to dial in tones in context at a comfortable volume is just so much more productive, enjoyable, and quicker. And recall... I've punched in multiple times and it's super easy - being able to store hundreds of patches is a big help with that.

I'm sure I'd also enjoy valve amp + loadbox + impulses but to get all the amps I like and use would be more expensive than using the Axe FX 2, plus it'd take up a lot of room.

Sporky

I should point out that I don't mean to criticise the people making the detailed comparisons - nor to suggest that they don't also play (probably more and better than I do). And I do get the appeal of a trouser-flapping level of volume (not sure if trouser-flapping has much to do with valves).

It's simply that I've always gone both-feet into whatever setup I'm going to use. I spend a bit of time comparing options (mostly on paper) and then get on with what I've got.

I am a bit curious how much two amps of the same model sound alike - my suspicion is that component tolerances, valve age, how the speaker's been treated and so on probably create differences.

Drew_TNBD

I had a Kemper and Axe FX side by side, for a long time too. At least 9 months (that's a long time in gear land!!).

And I couldn't pick a favourite for RAW amp tones. I really couldn't.

But I kept falling down the rabbit hole of comparing my modellers to my real amps, and I had some sick amps at the time - Diezel D-Moll was the main one I remember.

I took a load of profiles of that amp, and would try and dial in the Dizzy models and the VH4 models on the Axe FX to be as close to the amp as possible. I was never happy, I always preferred the real amp. This was through monitors as well as a real cab btw.

But none of it was blind testing, and obviously there is the emotional aspects to it - look at this big manly back breaking valve amp!! It just HAS to be better...!!

In reality?? I just don't know... there are too many variables. Signal level differences, schematic differences, speaker differences... etc... and when you use a looper to nullify the differences in performance, and when you use the same power-amp and cab ... you start get snow blindness.

@Guitarfishbay and I are mates and we've spent a lot of time sending recordings back and forth with each other, debating the ins and outs of tone - even down to string choice and plectrum choice!! I think he'd agree that none of it has really helped us write any music!

It can be a bit of a distraction is what I'm getting at. There is no doubt in my mind that if I had an Axe FX II again or a Kemper and compared it with the Helix, I would be happy with the amp tones across the board.

I've tried to embrace differences with gear and not obsess too much. Because most of the time it just prevents me from writing choonz!

tldr; It doesn't matter. But I still prefer my amps