Helix LT is now available for order. Cut down version - ish.

fretmeister

John_A said:

Vaiai said:

Picking mine up tmrw

Congratulations - I'd start a new thread if I were you this one's been derailed somewhat  

I think a Helix thread can cope with multiple strands.

Drew_TNBD

fretmeister said:

John_A said:

Vaiai said:

Picking mine up tmrw

Congratulations - I'd start a new thread if I were you this one's been derailed somewhat  

I think a Helix thread can cope with multiple strands.

Ha! I see what you did there!

fretmeister

eyefankewe

I'm here all week.

Aidanspaghetti

Time for hypnotoad........

Clarky

fretmeister said:

Clearly are you using IR / cab sims with the 1960b?

when I run through my 1960b's, I set cab modelling to 'bypassed'

fretmeister

Clarky said:

fretmeister said:

Clearly are you using IR / cab sims with the 1960b?

when I run through my 1960b's, I set cab modelling to 'bypassed'

I thought that likely, just checking!

Clarky

John_A said:

Clarky said:

John_A said:

Don't think any claims have been made that FRFR was the only way to use these 'It's a fallacy to say these things were meant to be used frfr' isn't quite right either, they are designed to be used FRFR to get the most versatility out of them, but if someone likes their amp/cab and are happy with the compromise that comes with using them then why not, just don't expect an accurate Princeton reverb out of a mesa 4x12

mixing amps and cabs isn't unusual…
personally I always preferred the VH4 through Marshall cabs than through Diezels..
in fact, loads of years ago I used to have a 100W Laney 1x12 combo.. which was fine at home..
but live I ran that through a Marshall 4x12 to grow it some spudz

to say modellers are designed for FRFR is not true..
it's more accurate to say that they are designed to that they can work with FRFR
even Cliff Chase [Mr Fractal] uses his through real cabs..
in the studio I use cab IR's because it's the best way for me to record..
live I don't because I prefer a pair 1960b's
the only thing I use live that is FRFR is the power amp..
so my live tone is essentially..
the Axe-II makes the amp tone completely, the power amp makes it loud, all through 1960b cabs…

Hi Clarky. Don't think I was clear in what I said.  I think modellers are designed to be used FRFR, I.e. Straight in to the desk' FRFR cab, PA or whatever IF you are trying to reproduce the sound of a specific model as closely as possible to what that model is supposed to be. 

What I suspect you are doing as a pro, is creating a sound that sounds fantastic, and fits with the music you are playing, not sweating that your clean sound isn't exactly like a 1662 fender twin.

done what you do for years, bunged whatever amp I was using through a pair of 1960s, the issue with doing that, although it's only an issue if you let it be one, is the tone will always be coloured by the cabs to some degree.  I'm happy with that, so are you and so are a lot of people, but the discussion started talking about putting a specific preamp through a real amp and speaker and claiming it didn't sound as good as a 'proper valve amp' if that's the case I'd say twiddle some knobs until it does, and 'better' and 'exactly the same' aren't the same thing

actually, the cabs don't just colour the tone a bit.. I'd go so far as to state that they stamp their voice all over it..

the thing with emulating a real world scenario, let's say a Fender Twin in the Axe-FX via FRFR with a real Fender Twin is that it's still not comparing apples with apples..
the Axe-FX through an FRFR rig will sound exactly like a real Fender Twin that has been mic'd and you're sitting either in the control room or front of house.. which is a rather different experience..

if you put a modeller through a valve power amp, you'll be hearing the voice of the power amp too..
in this case you'd bypass power amp modelling in the Axe-FX [unless you happen to like the power amp through a power amp tone].. lol..
that said.. using our previous example,
you'd end up with the tone stack of a Fender Twin through let's say a Marshall EL34 100W/100W [and then there's the cabs…]
absolutely not comparing apples with apples now…
that said.. although for accuracy our tone has gone way off on a tangent, there's no reason why it wouldn't sound cool..

I think the only thing that is equally sniffy about some valve tone guys, is modeller guys that refuse to use anything but "the right cabs" with specific amps because they're trying to be 100% authentic [forgetting that they're also hearing the mic and its placement that the IR was shot with]..

tools like the Axe-FX etc are just tools… they're good.. highly flexible, and will allow you to create all kinds of mental combinations of things.. so I say just screw with stuff until you find something that hit's the spot.. even if it's proper strange..
essentially taking your amp / cab to the custom shop but in the digital domain…
 which I know can produce some astonishing tones..

Clarky

guitarfishbay said:

John_A said:

Hi Clarky. Don't think I was clear in what I said.  I think modellers are designed to be used FRFR, I.e. Straight in to the desk' FRFR cab, PA or whatever IF you are trying to reproduce the sound of a specific model as closely as possible to what that model is supposed to be. 

It stands to reason that if you amplify a full (pre and power amp) sim through a flat power amp with enough clean headroom, and the same guitar cabinet as you were using with the 'real' amp it should be able to get fairly close - if not matching the tone exactly it should at least get in the ballpark of feel and response.  Unless there's something fundamental I don't understand about modelers.

in my experience this is absolutely the case…
it is worth noting that if you cut a recording of exactly the same source performance through two real amps of the same make and model, with exactly the same settings, through cabs of the same make and model, there's nothing to suggest that the tones would be 100% the same

I have a pair of 1960b cabs… they are the same spec, and yet they sound noticeably different…
funnily enough, having gigged them for years and years, it wasn't me that spotted it.. it was Drew

EDIT: if I recall correctly [when Drew and I were chatting about this in the studio] it was the fact that they were very similar, but just different enough that was the magic formula..

Clarky

guitarfishbay said:

I'm fairly sure he just uses the 1960s with T75s and has them mic'd up.

if it's my rig you guys are referring to, they are bog standard 1960's with T75's
nothing special.. and they're mic'd live

and….
"an IR (which is a sample of a Power Amp and Cab)"
in the Axe-FX, the power amp and cab are not shot together.. they are completely decoupled..

Clarky

fretmeister said:

Clarky said:

fretmeister said:

Clearly are you using IR / cab sims with the 1960b?

when I run through my 1960b's, I set cab modelling to 'bypassed'

I thought that likely, just checking!

you can really hear it when you forget to turn the cab modelling off..
the tone gets very compressed, muffled and wooly..
it's the "blanket over my cabs" tone..

Sporky

Clarky said:

you can really hear it when you forget to turn the cab modelling off..

the tone gets very compressed, muffled and wooly..
it's the "blanket over my cabs" tone..

That's not surprising - in very crude terms the cab modelling will be a bandpass filter, mostly removing higher frequencies. 5kHz upwards at a guess.

Drew_TNBD

Sporky said:

Clarky said:

you can really hear it when you forget to turn the cab modelling off..

the tone gets very compressed, muffled and wooly..
it's the "blanket over my cabs" tone..

That's not surprising - in very crude terms the cab modelling will be a bandpass filter, mostly removing higher frequencies. 5kHz upwards at a guess.

Not just that, but it'll also accentuate certain low-end frequencies and create a ton of mud. It's generally not advisable to run a speaker into a speaker, or a poweramp into a poweramp, or even a preamp into a preamp. Proper gain staging innit.

Sporky

Yeah, but fuzz into fuzz...

ThePrettyDamned

@Clarky interesting you say that, Ola and that angry chap at smg studios (who's a bit of a hero imo) both say that when recording they pick the speaker that sounds the best in a cab. 

So even a 4x12 with 4 of the same speakers, each speaker can sound a bit different. 

Drew_TNBD

Clarky said:

guitarfishbay said:

John_A said:

Hi Clarky. Don't think I was clear in what I said.  I think modellers are designed to be used FRFR, I.e. Straight in to the desk' FRFR cab, PA or whatever IF you are trying to reproduce the sound of a specific model as closely as possible to what that model is supposed to be. 

It stands to reason that if you amplify a full (pre and power amp) sim through a flat power amp with enough clean headroom, and the same guitar cabinet as you were using with the 'real' amp it should be able to get fairly close - if not matching the tone exactly it should at least get in the ballpark of feel and response.  Unless there's something fundamental I don't understand about modelers.

in my experience this is absolutely the case…
it is worth noting that if you cut a recording of exactly the same source performance through two real amps of the same make and model, with exactly the same settings, through cabs of the same make and model, there's nothing to suggest that the tones would be 100% the same

I have a pair of 1960b cabs… they are the same spec, and yet they sound noticeably different…
funnily enough, having gigged them for years and years, it wasn't me that spotted it.. it was Drew

EDIT: if I recall correctly [when Drew and I were chatting about this in the studio] it was the fact that they were very similar, but just different enough that was the magic formula..

I remember one cab sounding darker and one cab sounding brighter, to the point where I wasn't sure if they really were using the same speakers in each!!

digitalscream

ThePrettyDamned said:

@Clarky interesting you say that, Ola and that angry chap at smg studios (who's a bit of a hero imo) both say that when recording they pick the speaker that sounds the best in a cab. 

So even a 4x12 with 4 of the same speakers, each speaker can sound a bit different. 

Oddly enough, he's nowhere near as angry in real life. Although I'm not sure he'll thank me for saying that...reputation to protect an' all that

gearaddict

Vaiai said:

Picking mine up tmrw

I thought they weren't out until the 18th?

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

Sporky said:

Clarky said:

you can really hear it when you forget to turn the cab modelling off..

the tone gets very compressed, muffled and wooly..
it's the "blanket over my cabs" tone..

That's not surprising - in very crude terms the cab modelling will be a bandpass filter, mostly removing higher frequencies. 5kHz upwards at a guess.

Not just that, but it'll also accentuate certain low-end frequencies and create a ton of mud. It's generally not advisable to run a speaker into a speaker, or a poweramp into a poweramp, or even a preamp into a preamp. Proper gain staging innit.

totally… 
the highs get wiped out
and I think the area roughly around the 90Hz to 150Hz gets a double boost.. once from the IR and then again from the cab

yukky

Clarky

Sporky said:

Yeah, but fuzz into fuzz…

fuzz + fuzz = fizz + noiz.. lol

guitarfishbay

ThePrettyDamned said:

Ola and that angry chap at smg studios (who's a bit of a hero imo) both say that when recording they pick the speaker that sounds the best in a cab. 

So even a 4x12 with 4 of the same speakers, each speaker can sound a bit different. 

Speakers are inconsistent.  I've got 8 of the same type of speaker (Mesa V30, 16 ohm).  None of them sound the same.  I don't think I've ever heard two speakers that sound the exact same, though some are very close to the point you'd never hear it outside of an isolated A/B.

I've got two identical 2x12 cabs, one is deeper and smoother, the other is tighter and a bit harsher in comparison.  They're both the exact same cab.  I think pretty much anyone could tell the difference if I played one then the other.  But they sound great together.

This is another reason why IRs of the same speaker from different companies can sound different.