The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

PolarityMan

No....Farron is definitely a joke.

english_bob

fields5069 said:

english_bob said:

fields5069 said:

I wonder if more will follow.

More what? Follow what?

More politics? Nah, I think after this election they'll all just give up.

Doh. I posted just after I saw the CPS ruling, i.e. will more CPS rulings follow on possible Tory fraud.

Ah. Got it. I think the rest of the cases that had been referred to the CPS have all been dealt with already. No prosecutions.

marantz1300

Strong and stable

My arse.

Fretwired

PolarityMan said:

No....Farron is definitely a joke.

Lib Dems are down to 7% .. Labour on 40% and Tories on 45% which is a hung Parliament. Farron's toast - God and politics don't mix well.

May's only hope is the polls being wrong ... looks like its Jezza all the way. I bet those Blairites will have to kiss some serious arse to get favour after the way they treated Corbyn, when their own bacon munching candidate with the big stone couldn't beat Cameron.

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

If Corbyn shouldn't have to answer questions about supposed terrorist sympathies, why should May subject herself to the baying hounds?

1) Because she's the Prime Minister
2) He has made himself available to the baying hounds.

See my above response to Cirrus. I'm not talking about their responses to those situations. I'm talking about OUR responses to their responses.

I'm far more interested in talking about society than I am political parties.

I can tell that you are in a societal mood. When I commented yesterday about how you were using a lot of "us/them" statements about the media, it's here again. The problem is that I don't speak for a group. I don't play in a band, I've given up team sports, I'm not even in a relationship. The principal group I'm involved with is this forum and it'd be batty for me to speak for them, so I can only speak about my reactions to their responses. 

Corbyn's faced questions about the IRA for years. His support for them is questionable but if you're going to hold historical events as proof of unsuitability in the modern era, we'd never have peace in that region and Gerry Adams would be no more than a squeaky voice on the news. Other areas know the ambiguity of history versus modern needs. Reading about Menachem Begin last month (former terrorist leader who became Prime Minister of Israel) was a case in point. The moral and ethical fog around Corbyn and the IRA isn't much different to us selling weapons to the Saudis or perhaps Cameron visiting Egypt after the Arab Spring uprising hand in hand with weapons contractors. 

Now Corbyn may offer you up replies that don't work for you. That's fair enough. That is his right to do so and your right to object. If you feel his replies are not good enough, then don't vote for him. 

My response to May refusing interviews: it's bullshit. She is different because, unlike Corbyn, she sits in Downing Street with the hands on the tiller. She is different because she has distanced herself from decent scrutiny ever since the campaign began. From Cornwall to Bristol, there are reports of how she dropped into areas unannounced to give the same rhetoric to local Conservative group members. The Bristol Post gave an excellent account of her visit on May 3rd in which she took zero questions from locals and spoke to selected media in front of an audience of Conservative members and councillors who were only allowed in with photo ID. There's a huge world of difference between that approach and what I saw last August. That approachability aspect that Corbyn possessed that night is something he still has now. May does not and, if anything, keeps pushing the electorate further and further back. For someone who spoke about the dangers of the global elite last November, she's doing a fucking great job at maintaining a gap between herself and the rest of her party, let alone the great unwashed electorate. 

Axe_meister

Maybe a hung parliment would be a good thing. Meaning a compromise between tory cuts and high labour spend. I for one hope Simon Huges wins his seat back. He is probably the best candidate to lead the Lib Dems. But will Jezza be PM in a hung parliment I doubt it, Darth May, may hang on for a while until somebody else comes to the fore (I bet Boris is already planning his comeback).

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

ICBM said:

PolarityMan said:

I also have no idea why the lib-dems werent agile enough to run on a reverse-brexit manifesto with anyone other than that berk Farron as the figurehead that would have had them hoovering up the remain vote and given them in my opinion their first ever shot at forming a government.

I said that when the election was called. That was the almost certain way to appeal to most of the 48% who voted Remain. They needn't have even had anything else on the manifesto. They want a second referendum - they should have made this it.

But they were too weak to grasp the opportunity, and now it's quite clear that they are going to face the classic third-party squeeze as tactical voters who might have voted for them justifiably turn to Labour as the only means of getting rid of May. 

Or they made a back-door deal.

They weren't agile enough because they had neither the time nor resources to do it. It's been detailed how the Conservative candidate lists hadn't been updated for months and so the snap election caused panic in some areas of CCHQ because they were short of people. Now if it's like that for the well funded ruling party, then you can be sure it's going to be fairly similar for the Lib Dems. They haven't got the money nor the resources to go from being a minority party to being in government, and the idea that people would flock to them in such huge numbers that we'd have a real chance of PM Farron was ludicrous weeks ago. 

After all the political chicanery of the last two years, this has actually been quite a traditional two-party squabble. 

A Lib Dem back door deal: Well...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/22/lib-dems-no-coalition-tim-farron-general-election

The Clegg rollback on tuition fees damaged them. Farron rolling back on a coalition deal and joining up with Labour would damage them. If they joined up with the Conservatives, it could render them extinct. 

Heartfeltdawn

ICBM said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Or they made a back-door deal.

Not sure if that's a Farron joke or not!

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

If Corbyn shouldn't have to answer questions about supposed terrorist sympathies, why should May subject herself to the baying hounds?

1) Because she's the Prime Minister
2) He has made himself available to the baying hounds.

See my above response to Cirrus. I'm not talking about their responses to those situations. I'm talking about OUR responses to their responses.

I'm far more interested in talking about society than I am political parties.

I can tell that you are in a societal mood. When I commented yesterday about how you were using a lot of "us/them" statements about the media, it's here again. The problem is that I don't speak for a group. I don't play in a band, I've given up team sports, I'm not even in a relationship. The principal group I'm involved with is this forum and it'd be batty for me to speak for them, so I can only speak about my reactions to their responses.

How come you're capable of noticing general patterns of behaviour when it comes to politicians, but not general patterns of behaviour when it comes to us lot? Yes. Us lot. This forum. And others. But we can focus on this one if you want to be a bit more specific.

I have seen people on this very forum intimate that they thought Corbyn should never be asked any questions about his tendency to fencesit when it comes to terrorism. That's my characterisation btw.

I see those same people bleating on about how May has no spine because she wont do every single interview that is asked of her.

Now maybe she's an elitist cunt who doesn't think she should have to speak to anyone. And maybe Corbyn shits gold bricks and gives them to one-legged flipper babies living in the ghettos of Tring.

I don't care about that right now.

I care about my perceived hypocrisy of people who turn every single fucking political discussion into a partisan discussion. I care about how politics in general have become a mudslinging game where evidence, substance, and information gets completely overlooked or shat upon in favour of team sports.

I am indeed in a societal mood, and a critical one. The discourse on Brexit, Trump, and now this election has driven me into a deep depression for the state of things - and the state of people who I consider my peers, because they're most often acting in rather extraordinary ways, and they don't even seem to care. That's why I blew up on Russell the other day, and that's why I get into so many fisticuffs with the patrons here. I dispair at the lack of critical thought and self reflection.

Now I'm off to critically think about washing my balls until I can see my own reflection in them.

Fretwired

Axe_meister said:

Maybe a hung parliment would be a good thing. Meaning a compromise between tory cuts and high labour spend. I for one hope Simon Huges wins his seat back. He is probably the best candidate to lead the Lib Dems. But will Jezza be PM in a hung parliment I doubt it, Darth May, may hang on for a while until somebody else comes to the fore (I bet Boris is already planning his comeback).

Not sure how it would work though. Nobody will support the Tories .. May could have to resign, the Tories get a new leader and off we go again ... :-)

ICBM

Axe_meister said:

Maybe a hung parliment would be a good thing. Meaning a compromise between tory cuts and high labour spend. I for one hope Simon Huges wins his seat back. He is probably the best candidate to lead the Lib Dems. But will Jezza be PM in a hung parliment I doubt it, Darth May, may hang on for a while until somebody else comes to the fore (I bet Boris is already planning his comeback).

Unless the Tories are very close to a majority and think they can get away with running a minority government, probably with support from the DUP, May will not be PM in a hung parliament. The SNP - certain to be the third party - will never support her, they'd rather do a deal with Satan than a Tory. (More or less the same thing to a lot of Scots.)

Heartfeltdawn

Axe_meister said:

Maybe a hung parliment would be a good thing. Meaning a compromise between tory cuts and high labour spend. I for one hope Simon Huges wins his seat back. He is probably the best candidate to lead the Lib Dems. 

So you'd drop Farron with his ambiguity over homosexuality and replace him with a guy who finally came out of the closest after running one of the most homophobic campaigns in British political history? Good luck with that one...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermondsey_by-election,_1983

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-21556184/tatchell-hughes-on-30-years-since-bermondsey-by-election

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

How come you're capable of noticing general patterns of behaviour when it comes to politicians, but not general patterns of behaviour when it comes to us lot? Yes. Us lot. This forum. And others. But we can focus on this one if you want to be a bit more specific.

I have seen people on this very forum intimate that they thought Corbyn should never be asked any questions about his tendency to fencesit when it comes to terrorism. That's my characterisation btw.

I see those same people bleating on about how May has no spine because she wont do every single interview that is asked of her.

Now maybe she's an elitist cunt who doesn't think she should have to speak to anyone. And maybe Corbyn shits gold bricks and gives them to one-legged flipper babies living in the ghettos of Tring.

I don't care about that right now.

I care about my perceived hypocrisy of people who turn every single fucking political discussion into a partisan discussion. I care about how politics in general have become a mudslinging game where evidence, substance, and information gets completely overlooked or shat upon in favour of team sports.

I am indeed in a societal mood, and a critical one. The discourse on Brexit, Trump, and now this election has driven me into a deep depression for the state of things - and the state of people who I consider my peers, because they're most often acting in rather extraordinary ways, and they don't even seem to care. That's why I blew up on Russell the other day, and that's why I get into so many fisticuffs with the patrons here. I dispair at the lack of critical thought and self reflection.

Now I'm off to critically think about washing my balls until I can see my own reflection in them.

I do notice patterns of behaviour within the forum though. Sometimes I write replies to it. Most of the time I delete it because it's a waste of time and I'm not hugely confrontational now. There is plenty of hypocrisy around, no doubt. Calling people on it though in the online world is like trying to travel to the Moon using a unicycle: you can start but you'll never reach the end. 

You hate the partisan approach, on that we entirely agree. 

 From my point, I don't criticise May for rejecting the odd interview. I criticise her for hiding. Cameron had some similar practices when he was out on the stump but nothing to this level of electorate micromanagement. 

PolarityMan

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

ICBM said:

PolarityMan said:

I also have no idea why the lib-dems werent agile enough to run on a reverse-brexit manifesto with anyone other than that berk Farron as the figurehead that would have had them hoovering up the remain vote and given them in my opinion their first ever shot at forming a government.

I said that when the election was called. That was the almost certain way to appeal to most of the 48% who voted Remain. They needn't have even had anything else on the manifesto. They want a second referendum - they should have made this it.

But they were too weak to grasp the opportunity, and now it's quite clear that they are going to face the classic third-party squeeze as tactical voters who might have voted for them justifiably turn to Labour as the only means of getting rid of May. 

Or they made a back-door deal.

They haven't got the money nor the resources to go from being a minority party to being in government, and the idea that people would flock to them in such huge numbers that we'd have a real chance of PM Farron was ludicrous weeks ago. 

It's not ludicrous at all if they had an actual leader. The lib-dems have always been a pro European party and I dont think the damage over tuition fees is as severe as people make out, the lib dems were still in the minority in the coalition remember. Certainly in the south east they have credible candidates in virtually every constituency and that doesnt point to me at a lack of resources.

As I said before the biggest problem facing all the parties appears to be a talent pipeline problem for senior positions.

PolarityMan

FWIW I also think the lib dems could have done better sticking with Clegg even with the damage to his reputation than going with Farron.

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

FWIW I also think the lib dems could have done better sticking with Clegg even with the damage to his reputation than going with Farron.

That's probably because there seems to have developed a modern belief that if a party loses an election, the leader should immediately resign. That didn't happen in the past - in particular, Harold Wilson not only remained Labour leader after he lost to Heath in 1970, he went on to win the next election.

Admittedly Clegg did lose catastrophically, undoing all the good work of his predecessors, but it should have been obvious to him that there was no credible replacement.

Heartfeltdawn

PolarityMan said:

It's not ludicrous at all if they had an actual leader. The lib-dems have always been a pro European party and I dont think the damage over tuition fees is as severe as people make out, the lib dems were still in the minority in the coalition remember. Certainly in the south east they have credible candidates in virtually every constituency and that doesnt point to me at a lack of resources.

As I said before the biggest problem facing all the parties appears to be a talent pipeline problem for senior positions.

You could have Tony Stark complete with Iron Man armour as leader and they'd still be weak. 

Tuition fees fucked the Libs for a long time with regard to the young who were either going to uni imminently or those at uni. That was 7 years ago. Those 20 year olds then are now 27 and in jobs and starting families and shit and they know that their brats will be paying the fees that Clegg so opposed and then climbed down upon. 

They have credible candidates, no question. If you go to a Lib Dem selection meeting, it's very different to a Labour one (and I'm speaking from experience this year as one of my friends is contemplating standing in 2022 for the Libs and has asked me if I'd be her election agent. Still mulling that one over...). Although I dislike stereotypes, I would describe the Lib Dem meeting as more garden party and social event than the Labour equivalent which is more boots n' all activism. That's where they differ in resources. Labour are streets ahead of the Liberals, in the quality of their teams, from doorsteppers to leaflets to phone bankers. There is no group within the Liberals who are up with modern media communications as Momentum for instance.

Two things people thought might happen haven't.

1) That the Brexit result would mean Labour losing tons of Leavers to the Conservatives or UKIP. It hasn't happened. 

2) That the Brexit result would mean Labour and the Conservatives losing some Remainers to the Liberal Democrats. It hasn't happened. 

Both of which mean that my supposition come to the time of the Stoke Central byelection, that Brexit wasn't seen as being a domestic issue and thus many people would return to traditional GE voting patterns, is being proven right going by the opinion polls so far. 

PolarityMan

I'm unconvinced that doorstepping and random facebook memes are as effective as people think.

PolarityMan

I mean who enjoy cold calls offering to fix your windows PC? That's what being doorstepped is like.

Axe_meister

Heartfeltdawn said:

Axe_meister said:

Maybe a hung parliment would be a good thing. Meaning a compromise between tory cuts and high labour spend. I for one hope Simon Huges wins his seat back. He is probably the best candidate to lead the Lib Dems. 

So you'd drop Farron with his ambiguity over homosexuality and replace him with a guy who finally came out of the closest after running one of the most homophobic campaigns in British political history? Good luck with that one...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermondsey_by-election,_1983

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-21556184/tatchell-hughes-on-30-years-since-bermondsey-by-election

Tis a long time ago. I happen to know him personally (distant relative) and have a lot of time for him.