Police thugs in action

ToneControl

Dominic said:

Niallseroreilly said:

You cant hit or physically challenge cops

No ,you are meant to take the beating quietly

?
what action would you want a policeman to take when hit or when someone tries to start a fight with them?

ToneControl

Dominic said:

No kids were hitting or kicking Police until the police launched an assault on children
These kids were 14 years old or thereabouts 
Not little "motherfuckers "……….sorry ,just disgusting

how do you know how old there are?
they were pointing their fingers in the policeman's face, challenging him, and refusing to follow instructions. I have seen plenty of adults arrested for that. If they were 14, should they be immune to following instructions? Were the police in less danger from a 14 year old than a 16 year old?

bingefeller

Dominic said:

No kids were hitting or kicking Police until the police launched an assault on children
These kids were 14 years old or thereabouts 
Not little "motherfuckers "……….sorry ,just disgusting

The police are only human and they let a swear word slip in the heat of the moment.   If you think that's "disgusting" then you have absolutely no idea.  

ToneControl

If my kids behaved like any of those (other than the ones just videoing it), I would be disgusted and furious with them

ThePrettyDamned

WezV said:

Legionreturns said:

De escalation is my bread and butter, so I can talk about it with authority. 

Viable tools you can use include, but are not limited to: 

Taking a step back and not showing aggressive body language
Talking calmly and requesting that they do the same
Using humour
Asking open, non accusatory questions
If all of these fail, things can go one of two ways. First I would change the dynamic by tagging in someone else (We do this all the time, you'd be amazed at the difference a change of face makes. The person they've had a problem with us no longer involved) 
If that doesn't work, and there really is no other alternative because people or property are in danger, we might restrain for as short a time as possible and get the young person somewhere safe and away from others. Usually within 5 minutes of this happening they have calmed down. You can combine tks with a tag. The person or people doing the restraint immediately tag out and someone who hasn't been involved comes in to the room to take over and talk when they're ready.

These are a mixture of taught skills and soft skills. In my view it should be mandatory for all community police to be trained and assessed in these skills. 

Never, and I can't believe I'm having to say this, should you threaten or swear. You should always be the one on control and demonstrating that you are. 

Showing kids like this that you think the problem can be solved with violence, intimidation and confrontation is not a good idea. 

And then occasionally, despite the best intentions and all the training, it all goes pear shaped anyway.


i worked as a teaching assistant with 14+ students for ten years before becoming a teacher myself.  I have seen a lot of brilliant teachers have very bad days and I have been there myself.  

i don't do it now.  In all honesty, I knew I was only ever one bad day away from a situation like this

Indeed. Four years of healthcare (read four years of de-escalation) and I've seen brilliant and talented people lose their rag, thankfully never coming to blows. Sometimes it's just a really, really bad day. 

It does not excuse the behavior of the police here but it could explain it. We know there are fewer police on the streets. These guys could be incredibly stressed, sitting at breaking point for long periods of time. 

Nunogilberto

Legionreturns said:

Some people are totally missing the point here. Police are a professional outfit, with public responsibility and standards to uphold. There may have been any number of things happened before the camera was rolling, but nothing excuses the behavior of an officer of the law acting like that. 

If you were doing your job and decided that entitled you to wade in, looking for a fight and calling people mother fuckers, do you think you'd still have a job? 

What if your job was to be a uniformed exemplar of the law? 

I totally get that the behavior of the young people was wrong. It might even have been threatening or dangerous, but there's still a professional way to deal with that. This wasn't it.

Absolutely spot on. As I said earlier, the one copper charging in all aggressive completely changed the tone of the situation and control of the whole thing was lost. Poor policing.

WezV

ThePrettyDamned said:

WezV said:

Legionreturns said:

De escalation is my bread and butter, so I can talk about it with authority. 

Viable tools you can use include, but are not limited to: 

Taking a step back and not showing aggressive body language
Talking calmly and requesting that they do the same
Using humour
Asking open, non accusatory questions
If all of these fail, things can go one of two ways. First I would change the dynamic by tagging in someone else (We do this all the time, you'd be amazed at the difference a change of face makes. The person they've had a problem with us no longer involved) 
If that doesn't work, and there really is no other alternative because people or property are in danger, we might restrain for as short a time as possible and get the young person somewhere safe and away from others. Usually within 5 minutes of this happening they have calmed down. You can combine tks with a tag. The person or people doing the restraint immediately tag out and someone who hasn't been involved comes in to the room to take over and talk when they're ready.

These are a mixture of taught skills and soft skills. In my view it should be mandatory for all community police to be trained and assessed in these skills. 

Never, and I can't believe I'm having to say this, should you threaten or swear. You should always be the one on control and demonstrating that you are. 

Showing kids like this that you think the problem can be solved with violence, intimidation and confrontation is not a good idea. 

And then occasionally, despite the best intentions and all the training, it all goes pear shaped anyway.


i worked as a teaching assistant with 14+ students for ten years before becoming a teacher myself.  I have seen a lot of brilliant teachers have very bad days and I have been there myself.  

i don't do it now.  In all honesty, I knew I was only ever one bad day away from a situation like this

Indeed. Four years of healthcare (read four years of de-escalation) and I've seen brilliant and talented people lose their rag, thankfully never coming to blows. Sometimes it's just a really, really bad day. 

It does not excuse the behavior of the police here but it could explain it. We know there are fewer police on the streets. These guys could be incredibly stressed, sitting at breaking point for long periods of time. 

Underpaid, overworked.... and expected to be infallible at all times.  Yeah, sounds pretty likely to me.

ToneControl

Nunogilberto said:

Legionreturns said:

Some people are totally missing the point here. Police are a professional outfit, with public responsibility and standards to uphold. There may have been any number of things happened before the camera was rolling, but nothing excuses the behavior of an officer of the law acting like that. 

If you were doing your job and decided that entitled you to wade in, looking for a fight and calling people mother fuckers, do you think you'd still have a job? 

What if your job was to be a uniformed exemplar of the law? 

I totally get that the behavior of the young people was wrong. It might even have been threatening or dangerous, but there's still a professional way to deal with that. This wasn't it.

Absolutely spot on. As I said earlier, the one copper charging in all aggressive completely changed the the of the situation and control of the whole thing was lost. Poor policing.

Could you send me the evidence supporting that?
I've looked online, and cannot find any info about the context or location

The video starts at the point where the crowd have already started confronting the police, the PC talking to them is having no effect when issuing commands to disperse, what would have happened next without intervention? I've seen this at demos, a bigger crowd gathers, guys at the back start throwing rocks at the police, people get seriously hurt

ToneControl

Nunogilberto said:

Legionreturns said:

Some people are totally missing the point here. Police are a professional outfit, with public responsibility and standards to uphold. There may have been any number of things happened before the camera was rolling, but nothing excuses the behavior of an officer of the law acting like that. 

If you were doing your job and decided that entitled you to wade in, looking for a fight and calling people mother fuckers, do you think you'd still have a job? 

What if your job was to be a uniformed exemplar of the law? 

I totally get that the behavior of the young people was wrong. It might even have been threatening or dangerous, but there's still a professional way to deal with that. This wasn't it.

Absolutely spot on. As I said earlier, the one copper charging in all aggressive completely changed the the of the situation and control of the whole thing was lost. Poor policing.

what SHOULD have happened then?

ToneControl

btw, I've seen the police charge a crowd and beat people up for no reason, 
but this doesn't look like a bunch of peaceful protesters to me, it's a large group of belligerent teenagers 

JezWynd

If this was an overreaction by stressed out, overworked officers as some have surmised, then they've hardly done themselves a favour here. I see a shit load of paperwork resulting from this temper tantrum.

Flink_Poyd

It seems like this was in Taunton, Somerset according to a few comments.  

http://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/15313569.Controversial_arrest_video_sparks_police_investigation/

ToneControl

Flink_Poyd said:

It seems like this was in Taunton, Somerset according to a few comments.  

http://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/15313569.Controversial_arrest_video_sparks_police_investigation/

thanks, here's the important part:

"At 5.29pm today (May 26) we responded to a report a woman was being assaulted in Victoria Park.
"On arrival a large group of young people refused to co-operate with officers and five people between the ages of 15 and 34 were subsequently detained on suspicion of affray.
"The 18-year-old assault victim we were originally called to assist is currently in hospital receiving treatment for a number of injuries.
"An investigation is now underway and we’d ask people not to speculate while it takes place.
"Body worn video was worn by officers during the incident and will be reviewed as part of the inquiry.

 so someone's in hospital, ages of those arrested are 15-34, not all 14 year olds

and video evidence will be presented

but many are happy to make their own mind up about what had happened here based on a video selected by the friends of the arrested

ToneControl

this reminds me of a video doing the rounds recently
this was all over facebook



supposedly:

"Teenage GANG MEMBER Tries To TALK SH*T To A 54 Year Old GROWN MAN On The Subway . . . And The GROWN MAN Gives Him A PAINFUL LESSON!! (Did He GO TO FAR With It THO??)"

the true story, which can be found easily, it that 3 teenagers were being annoying, and this massive guy started slapping them round, then went back to do more

Eventually a small guy in his late 40s stood up to ask him to lay off (or something), did not threaten the much bigger man at all.
The big guy went back a few times, and beat him up - broken jaw, etc, etc

The big guy was convicted of GBH

but most internet folk believe that the little guy was a sassy teenager who got a little slap
the teenagers weren't even on this video
The facebook version of this cuts off after the beatings, which removes the voice of the victim, and the continuing aggressive behaviour of the perp

bingefeller

This happened the other week in a crowded park in Belfast.  The girl beating people up is 17 years old and the guy with her is 25.

@Legionreturns how would you have dealt with this?   What specifically would you have done to de-escalate this situation?

Nunogilberto

ToneControl said:

Nunogilberto said:

Legionreturns said:

Some people are totally missing the point here. Police are a professional outfit, with public responsibility and standards to uphold. There may have been any number of things happened before the camera was rolling, but nothing excuses the behavior of an officer of the law acting like that. 

If you were doing your job and decided that entitled you to wade in, looking for a fight and calling people mother fuckers, do you think you'd still have a job? 

What if your job was to be a uniformed exemplar of the law? 

I totally get that the behavior of the young people was wrong. It might even have been threatening or dangerous, but there's still a professional way to deal with that. This wasn't it.

Absolutely spot on. As I said earlier, the one copper charging in all aggressive completely changed the the of the situation and control of the whole thing was lost. Poor policing.

what SHOULD have happened then?

What SHOULD NOT have happened is for the one copper to come charging in like an idiot and start shoving and swearing at people who, up to then, had posed no threat other than being a nuisance.

What SHOULD have happened is for the officer in question to come over and assist his colleague in asking the kids to step away and calm the situation.

As it was, even though the kids were being challenging and wouldn't step back, that copper simply ignited the situation, REGARDLESS of what the background/context was beforehand.

As for your evidence, it's right there on the clip.

MatthewShreddery

The PC who came 'charging in' only did so once the situation had escalated to a physical level. The lad had pointed his finger in the face of the PC who reacted by grabbing the lad's finger. 

scrumhalf

The video we have seen is not an independent view of the entire event, so any comments must be made in light of that fact.

Could the police have handled it better? Probably.

Should the kids have been acting in that way? No. When asked to disperse they didn't. They reacted very badly and do not appear to have been ready to discuss this over an ice cream or anything like that.

I would like to know what brought the situation to this state of affairs. Why were they asked to disperse, what had they been doing?

It may be a hackneyed saying but in my day nobody would have dared speak to a police officer like that at that age.

ToneControl

Nunogilberto said:

ToneControl said:

Nunogilberto said:

Legionreturns said:

Some people are totally missing the point here. Police are a professional outfit, with public responsibility and standards to uphold. There may have been any number of things happened before the camera was rolling, but nothing excuses the behavior of an officer of the law acting like that. 

If you were doing your job and decided that entitled you to wade in, looking for a fight and calling people mother fuckers, do you think you'd still have a job? 

What if your job was to be a uniformed exemplar of the law? 

I totally get that the behavior of the young people was wrong. It might even have been threatening or dangerous, but there's still a professional way to deal with that. This wasn't it.

Absolutely spot on. As I said earlier, the one copper charging in all aggressive completely changed the the of the situation and control of the whole thing was lost. Poor policing.

what SHOULD have happened then?

What SHOULD NOT have happened is for the one copper to come charging in like an idiot and start shoving and swearing at people who, up to then, had posed no threat other than being a nuisance.

What SHOULD have happened is for the officer in question to come over and assist his colleague in asking the kids to step away and calm the situation.

As it was, even though the kids were being challenging and wouldn't step back, that copper simply ignited the situation, REGARDLESS of what the background/context was beforehand.

As for your evidence, it's right there on the clip.

He was already trying to calm the mob down, they were having none of it, and were kicking off 
When the PC ran in, what was happening to the right of the camera?
was the PC being threatened? The mob sounded pretty threatening
You don't know. What was happening to the right of the camera? You don't know
You don't know if he had orders to step in, you don't know if he'd just come from the woman who had been assaulted and was on her way to hospital, but you are happy to make these judgements on what the police SHOULD have done without knowing any of it

Who was standing in the park, shouting and causing a disturbance?
Whose job is it to act when large groups start getting aggressive?
I've seen no evidence of unreasonable force at all in this video

Let's return to this when the videos from the police body cameras have been used as evidence
I would have waited for that in the first place before forming an opinion, but many are keen to pass judgement based one clip of video that simply shows the police breaking up an angry mob after an arrest

ToneControl

here's the facebook version of this thread:
https://www.facebook.com/max.vierling.7/videos/vb.100002872764325/1128118213960593