Les Paul Prototype Build

randella

WezV said:

Well i am happy with it

There is always a danger in showing in progress relic pics.  They go through a few stages of looking worse before they start to look better, but sometimes its difficult to forget the stages you have seen before.

thats why many won’t show these bits of the process

I'm glad you do - it's interesting and it's nice to have the knowledge shared. 

Not least of all, useful - I keep flip-flopping on my plans for the Strat body I've made, but I think I'm going to have a stab at a trad Fender 'custom colour' and a bit of relicing.

Keep up the good work!  The WezV LP looks the business by the way.

Rocker

WezV said:

end of  play yesterday



 

@WezV, lovely build, wonderful craftsmanship and all that but was it necessary to go to town with the relicing?  I have never seen a guitar with a gash like the one in front of the bridge pickup.  And, while admitting that my knowledge of 1950s Goldtops is limited, the crazing seems a bit overdone to my eyes.  It may be less noticeable in reality...

WezV

nah, it s a good shout.   I am constantly asking myself if I have gone too far and what I still need to do.   Between working on the guitar I am comparing my work against genuine vintage examples and other modern interpretations of an aged gold top finish.   I don't think it looks genuinely old yet, but I think I am a damn site closer than a lot of other expensive examples out there.

Have a look back on page 9 and you will see the inspiration for the wear by the pickup.  

My interpretation of the wear through section isn't yet finalised - there are a few barriers stopping me getting exactly the same look as the genuine article.  My wood is whiter and heavily flamed in that section.   With all the processes I have done so far,  rubbing in dyes etc,  that section has gone overly dark and the flame makes it look patchy.  I spent last night with a strip of fine abrasive lightening it so I could stain more of an aged maple colour 

Is the crazing too much? The picture you have quoted above is the initial process of extreme crazing before I spent time working on patina and colour variation - so yes, that picture shows crazing which is too much, its too consistently dark..  Also, yes, that picture was taken to show the crazing.  I included others in different light to show it was more subtle than that picture - still extreme at that stage though. 

After that stage I developed it some more.  I think it looks better in the second picture where the heavy dark crazing is only apparent in high wear areas.  I am happy with wear (pun intended) its at now, the crazing on the low wear areas doesn't jump out at you, but appears from certain angles.  That's as it should be for me

was it necessary to go to town with the relicing?   Absolutely not.   The guitar already had the old 50's vibe before I even started any relic work, it was already a decent guitar.   none of this is necessary.  Its been done purely because I wanted to do it.   I started relicing to help new parts blend in nicely on repairs  and that is still my primary aim.   Doing a full relic on one of my own builds is good practice for other stuff I like to do

WezV

my current issue is with the pickup covers - the edges are a bit more rounded than I would like and they don't look old and shrunk yet.   I may decide to live with it, or I may try something else

paulnb57

Looks fantastic! and as you say its yours to with as you like...one mans fish is another man poisson...

WezV

Aw, I thought we would get more discussion on that.  Thanks for trying @Rocker.  I imagine many thought that stage was too much... I certainly did

 I’m not interested in the should I have reliced it or not question... but “is it an appropriate level of wear for....” is top of my mind, and I am happy to listen to dissenting voices.


also worth pointing out that it is just a finish at this point, there is no serious damage to woods which wouldn’t be solved by stripping and refinishing.... but I don’t think that’s going to happen as it’s starting to look spectacular 

WezV

randella said:

WezV said:

Well i am happy with it

There is always a danger in showing in progress relic pics.  They go through a few stages of looking worse before they start to look better, but sometimes its difficult to forget the stages you have seen before.

thats why many won’t show these bits of the process

I'm glad you do - it's interesting and it's nice to have the knowledge shared. 

Not least of all, useful - I keep flip-flopping on my plans for the Strat body I've made, but I think I'm going to have a stab at a trad Fender 'custom colour' and a bit of relicing.

Keep up the good work!  The WezV LP looks the business by the way.

I still freeze fender parts.  Partly it’s a size issue, although the boot of the car will act as a freezer at this time of year.

Goldtops age a bit differently and I needed predictability.

randella

WezV said:

 I’m not interested in the should I have reliced it or not question... but “is it an appropriate level of wear for....” is top of my mind, and I am happy to listen to dissenting voices.

What's an appropriate level of wear though?  I have two Strats, one's 28 years old, the other 22.  The 28-year-old is battered (through neglect, not deliberately reliced), but in a slightly funny way because it's a thick poly finish on the body.  The 22-year-old has one ding on the body, and the gold hardware plate is wearing away where my hand sits.  They look very different - because they've been treated differently (I'd grown up a bit by the time I got the second!) and they have different finishes, and I've not always had them both with me at the same time in different living circumstances and climates (the battered one came with me to Australia and had a particularly hot Queensland summer, for e.g.).

I mean how many of us have played a pre-CBS Strat to see what would be the 'proper' level of wear, the ones the Fender Custom Shop guys go for on a heavy relic?  I have, but I can't remember what it looked like.  Many on here might have played those golden axes, but what about the crowd at your gig?  Would many of them question the authenticity of the lacquer checking?

Whilst some areas of wear on a given type of guitar, to a degree, are predictable, surely it's not that exact a science to where we could take a professionally-aged guitar like yours and say it's not appropriate for the year?

That's why I say (with no disrespect to @Rocker - just a different opinion) crack on.

Danielsguitars

I like it alot, it's bloody difficult trying to age these things nicely, if i get close to your one wez I'd be happy

I'm struggling with the greening at the moment 

WezV

The question of “appropriate wear” is a good one.  I don’t think it always represents real life as they do all wear differently and some wear looks terrible even when genuine.

it becomes “expected wear” and “aesthetically pleasing wear” combining together to be “appropriate wear”.    The belt sander look annoys some, but does actually occur naturally on some finish types (fender custom colours).

this type of crazing is particular to this type of finish

TTony

WezV said:

Aw, I thought we would get more discussion on that.  Thanks for trying @Rocker.  I imagine many thought that stage was too much... I certainly did

I'm waiting to see how it turns out.

As you said in an earlier post, sometimes they look worse part-way through the process than at the end ...

So I'll comment tomorrow when it's all finished

normula1

what about a bit of wear near the toggle selector? I don't play that hard and I know I have a habit of hitting the switch with my plectrum as I flick between settings and the poker chips on my LPs have little nicks in them. 

WezV

normula1 said:

what about a bit of wear near the toggle selector? I don't play that hard and I know I have a habit of hitting the switch with my plectrum as I flick between settings and the poker chips on my LPs have little nicks in them. 

its not there on the inspiration on page 9, but there is wear on the toggle switch itself which I have replicated.   I have added a bit of wear above the fretboard which seems to be common on gold tops, although I left it quite subtle on mine.

The example of page 9 also shows another difference over later gold tops - the crazing doesn't deflect and go around the switch much at all, often you see concentric circles  in that area 

There could be a couple of reasons for that.  Firstly, that early 52 example has been hand crudely routed to fit the switch, I imagine they just made the whole area thinner on later models.  Those ones will move more and craze in a specific pattern dictated by the routing pattern underneath.  Secondly, there is no switch plate on these early ones. A shrinking plate may pull the finish towards the switch and change the crazing pattern that occurs.

I did a worn switch plate and altered the crazing pattern on my pancake style blacktop

Jalapeno

Looking the biz, hurry up and finish !!!!!!!!!

WezV

Jalapeno said:

Looking the biz, hurry up and finish !!!!!!!!!

Hopefully it won't be long now.   The patina on the metal will be the next step

impmann

I like it Wez, but...

The crazing and useage wear would be right for a VERY well played guitar. However, if you think about how wear occurs, you get shinier sections where arms etc rub against the paint. This shining then wears through to the colour coat on gold tops leading to greening under the lacquer.

This shows what I mean... to a point:



Another good example:



Whereas yours has general greening all over. (Or at least thats what it looks like on this monitor).

Also if you look at the second guitar, there is a dark patch by the bridge pickup - I've sen this a lot on well played GTs. Its not wear but its sweat reacting with the lacquer.

Hope that helps chap - it does look epic, though!

WezV

There isn't much greening at all in the pics posted so far.  Its the hardest bit to replicate and many relics only have a bit on broken edges.  I put an initial green stain in the cracks, but it was  mostly lost with the next stage of darker stains

You also see some vintage examples which are almost totally green, possibly the clear was thinner of they were overbuffed at the factory.  Its definitely thinning lacquer at some point that leads to the green shadows, as apposed to the fuzzy green verdigris in the cracks. 

ideally you would replicate this by  wearing through in a similar amount and forcing the bronze powder to green.  So far I am only having mixed results with that.  I have had more luck with rubbing a trans green stain in the appropriate areas ...... on-going on that one

I have it more at the green shadows stage at the moment, mainly along the upper bout - but I am not totally satisfied just yet

DannyP

I've been following this thread and wowing - but I only just noticed the WV inlaid logo - it's great!

A great variation on the G-style headstock design all-round, actually - not too close but not too divergent either!

menamestom

I think the ageing looks spot on.  No doubt how much lacquer checking depends on the climate the guitar has been kept it, temperature changes and humidity changes.  It's easily conceivable a guitar that is nearly 70 year old looks like this.

Plus, when finished and played a little, natural wear will come into play as well.

Looks ace.  I've not seen this thread before but that is a cool guitar, love it.

randella

WezV said:

The question of “appropriate wear” is a good one.  I don’t think it always represents real life as they do all wear differently and some wear looks terrible even when genuine.

it becomes “expected wear” and “aesthetically pleasing wear” combining together to be “appropriate wear”.    The belt sander look annoys some, but does actually occur naturally on some finish types (fender custom colours).

this type of crazing is particular to this type of finish

The key phrase in there, to me at least, is 'aesthetically-pleasing wear'.  The damage to my older Strat looks crap, frankly.  A bit like a modern polycarbonate car bumper with a 10-pence coin sized chunk or three taken out of it.  I still love the guitar dearly, but the Fender CS won't be imitating it for a Randella signature model any time soon!

So we've arrived at the answer I guess - the most pleasing bits of the 'appropriate' wear with a bit of 'aesthetic' besides.

I think decent relicing looks great.  To get my favourite guitar (a Strat, if you hadn't guessed ) with a pleasing patina, I'd need  either a mortgage-deposit sized wedge to drop on an old one, a new one and a repeat of my clumsy teenage years plus all the subsequent gigs over how many years plus lots of luck to get the damage right, or one that's been made to look old.

Whether or not it's exactly appropriate is neither here nor there to me, it looks good - it's really just an extension of the finishing of the guitar.  Done well, like yours, and I'd be a happy man.