Clarky and the Helix

Clarky

trolley said:

Clarky said:

Roland said:

Clarky said:

Stood on stage at an open air festival with a laptop and a guitar jacked into an audio interface

Nice fly rig. You could always have a selection of 4x12s in your rider.

A lappy sat on top of a wall of Marshalls..
I think this may actually be against the law 

Surely no more against the law than having a wall of Marshalls - none connected - and using a 1x12" offstage? Why not a wall of FRFR's - on poles?

this of course true…
this is where I can take the opportunity to state that I am completely authentic..
the Marshalls you see on stage are mic'd and real
and the amps… erm.. the.. ah.. yes…. the amps...

Drew_TNBD

So what's the verdict @Clarky ? Which gives you the best toanz out the box??

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

So what's the verdict @Clarky ? Which gives you the best toanz out the box??

best tones..
amps / cabs: the Axe and Helix are not a million miles apart, but I think the Axe is a little better
feel wise the Axe is considerably better

FX: the Axe is a lot better. More choice / more configurability.
That said the Helix chorus, reverbs and delays sound nice.
Not having an 'input-level' [input-trim in the Axe] is a major weakness when it comes to more sophisticated control needs.
The Helix pitch-shifter tracks ok for single notes, but for chords it really sux badly. Also the +12 setting sounds nasty. The Axe pitch-shifter is far superior and sounds nicer too.

I can't see myself getting a Helix.
It's a very good unit, but it just don't work for me, especially in the areas I need it to.
Overall [considering what I need a unit to do for me], the Axe and the Helix are worlds apart.
For someone with less demanding needs, I'd imagine the gulf between them to be considerably smaller.

I'm currently exploring the Axe_FX hire options to I take one unit and hire the spare.

Drew_TNBD

I think you're absolutely right. For a guy like you who has specific control needs and specific effects needs, the Helix isn't quite there for you.

FWIW I did put in a feature request into the Line 6 Ideascale page to add a curve parameter to the expression pedal inputs. I could really do with that!

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

I think you're absolutely right. For a guy like you who has specific control needs and specific effects needs, the Helix isn't quite there for you.

FWIW I did put in a feature request into the Line 6 Ideascale page to add a curve parameter to the expression pedal inputs. I could really do with that!

put in an input-level request too for the reverb and delay..
this will let you have the reverb and delay in series and use the XP to alter the wet level without changing the mix value..
why is this important..??

controlling the rev/dly in real time using the mix control kills the tails..
example control via mix parm
XP toe: no delay / XP heel: delay
XP toe -> heel: dry riff tone, cleans up and delay is introduced = all good
XP heel -> toe: cleaned tone ambient tails vanish at toe = good if this is what you not, not good if you want natural sounding decay

using input-level will allow the tails to decay naturally when the XP gets to toe because the input-level only acts upon the signal level that enters the wet path of the delay [or reverb]

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

I think you're absolutely right. For a guy like you who has specific control needs and specific effects needs, the Helix isn't quite there for you.

FWIW I did put in a feature request into the Line 6 Ideascale page to add a curve parameter to the expression pedal inputs. I could really do with that!

further thought…
I could make the Helix work with the DC Band if I simplified my requirements
essentially, dumb down some of the controller stuff I do

the big question is… will the band impose that on me?
if the answer is yes, I may as well go out with the VG-99 I already have
cost the same money and has similar limitations all round..

by comparison,
the Helix amp modelling is better than the VG,
the Helix paths are better than VG chains, but at least the VG has unit wide reverb and delay [which overcomes some probs I encountered in the Helix]
VG fx are better than the Helix
VG control is more flexible

Drew_TNBD

Did the whole 'input to the wet side' thing ages ago

I wonder if a pair of AX8's would suit you??

Unorthodox

   Clarky said:

Drew_TNBD said:

I think you're absolutely right. For a guy like you who has specific control needs and specific effects needs, the Helix isn't quite there for you.

FWIW I did put in a feature request into the Line 6 Ideascale page to add a curve parameter to the expression pedal inputs. I could really do with that!

put in an input-level request too for the reverb and delay..
this will let you have the reverb and delay in series and use the XP to alter the wet level without changing the mix value..
why is this important..??

controlling the rev/dly in real time using the mix control kills the tails..
example control via mix parm
XP toe: no delay / XP heel: delay
XP toe -> heel: dry riff tone, cleans up and delay is introduced = all good
XP heel -> toe: cleaned tone ambient tails vanish at toe = good if this is what you not, not good if you want natural sounding decay

using input-level will allow the tails to decay naturally when the XP gets to toe because the input-level only acts upon the signal level that enters the wet path of the delay [or reverb]

What about splitting the path after the cab (assuming you have the delay/reverb after amp & cab), one path dry, other path with a volume block tied to an expression pedal followed by the delay & reverb at full mix?

It would however mean that if there's a reverb after the delay, it's only getting a completely wet signal. Depends if you could live with only controlling the delay or reverb.

guitarfishbay

The feel difference is quite big between Helix Native and the Axe FX when it comes to the high gain amps. I spent a while comparing yesterday and really that's the biggest difference, the actual sounds in the Helix are pretty good on some of the models (Archon probably being my favourite).

The Axe bounces off your pick and the low end punches off your low notes much more flexibly, the Helix feels a bit tame in comparison. This is comparing level matched through the same IR, IR hosted in Space designer so as fair as I can make it. I don't have a hardware Helix but am testing the plugin 

I know it's not a priority to you for this purpose, but if you've got a bass give the Helix bass gear a go, I think that's where it shines. Plenty of choice and good tones. 

Jonathanthomas83

Not wishing to jump on the bandwagon, but again, after trying Native out over the weekend, I've been left wanting the feel under my fingers that I get from the Axe FX. Between that and the response of the pick attack, I think that's a better description of how different I feel the two units are than the reasons I gave before, which perhaps sounded a little unsubstantiated. They are different, to my ears and personally, I prefer the Axe FX for my needs.

ruoma

I've not been impressed by helix native.

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

Did the whole 'input to the wet side' thing ages ago

I wonder if a pair of AX8's would suit you??

tried one…
only one amp block
control side has been stripped back greatly..
to be honest, I'd rather have a Helix than an AX8 because [modelling aside] it's a more capable unit

Clarky

Unorthodox said:

   Clarky said:

Drew_TNBD said:

I think you're absolutely right. For a guy like you who has specific control needs and specific effects needs, the Helix isn't quite there for you.

FWIW I did put in a feature request into the Line 6 Ideascale page to add a curve parameter to the expression pedal inputs. I could really do with that!

put in an input-level request too for the reverb and delay..
this will let you have the reverb and delay in series and use the XP to alter the wet level without changing the mix value..
why is this important..??

controlling the rev/dly in real time using the mix control kills the tails..
example control via mix parm
XP toe: no delay / XP heel: delay
XP toe -> heel: dry riff tone, cleans up and delay is introduced = all good
XP heel -> toe: cleaned tone ambient tails vanish at toe = good if this is what you not, not good if you want natural sounding decay

using input-level will allow the tails to decay naturally when the XP gets to toe because the input-level only acts upon the signal level that enters the wet path of the delay [or reverb]

What about splitting the path after the cab (assuming you have the delay/reverb after amp & cab), one path dry, other path with a volume block tied to an expression pedal followed by the delay & reverb at full mix?

It would however mean that if there's a reverb after the delay, it's only getting a completely wet signal. Depends if you could live with only controlling the delay or reverb.

this is exactly how I solved the problem..
and the resulting problem is exactly what you're pointing out..
I'd like input level control over a delay and a reverb.. not a delay or a reverb… aaaahhghhhhh ! ! ! !

Clarky

guitarfishbay said:

The feel difference is quite big between Helix Native and the Axe FX when it comes to the high gain amps. I spent a while comparing yesterday and really that's the biggest difference, the actual sounds in the Helix are pretty good on some of the models (Archon probably being my favourite).

The Axe bounces off your pick and the low end punches off your low notes much more flexibly, the Helix feels a bit tame in comparison. This is comparing level matched through the same IR, IR hosted in Space designer so as fair as I can make it. I don't have a hardware Helix but am testing the plugin 

I know it's not a priority to you for this purpose, but if you've got a bass give the Helix bass gear a go, I think that's where it shines. Plenty of choice and good tones. 

this is exactly what I'm finding too..

I don't have a bass.. wish I did though.. I'm quite fond of Stingrays and Ricks

Clarky

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Not wishing to jump on the bandwagon, but again, after trying Native out over the weekend, I've been left wanting the feel under my fingers that I get from the Axe FX. Between that and the response of the pick attack, I think that's a better description of how different I feel the two units are than the reasons I gave before, which perhaps sounded a little unsubstantiated. They are different, to my ears and personally, I prefer the Axe FX for my needs.

when you hear recordings folks post of the two units they do sound roughly on a par..
close enough for someone to easily think that either can pip the other at the post - subjective..

but listening ain't the same as playing..
and on a similar theme
this is exactly how I felt about the Axe's VH4 ch3 model vs the real one..
the Axe made the noise of the real one but could never quite find it's special feel..
the feel of the VH4 ch3 in the Axe has for me always been illusive..

John_A

Clarky said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Not wishing to jump on the bandwagon, but again, after trying Native out over the weekend, I've been left wanting the feel under my fingers that I get from the Axe FX. Between that and the response of the pick attack, I think that's a better description of how different I feel the two units are than the reasons I gave before, which perhaps sounded a little unsubstantiated. They are different, to my ears and personally, I prefer the Axe FX for my needs.

when you hear recordings folks post of the two units they do sound roughly on a par..
close enough for someone to easily think that either can pip the other at the post - subjective..

but listening ain't the same as playing..
and on a similar theme
this is exactly how I felt about the Axe's VH4 ch3 model vs the real one..
the Axe made the noise of the real one but could never quite find it's special feel..
the feel of the VH4 ch3 in the Axe has for me always been illusive..

its funny, I have no issues at all with the feel of the Helix amps.  Now I've spent some time with it, I think the mix coming back through my monitor feels the same as when I used a mic'd up 4x12,   I do know you are a much more experienced than I am, and a better player, but I hope this isn't the start of a 1000 posts on TGP of 'the Helix doesn't feel right compared to the AxeFX'

I've spent more time wit the Helix than the AxeFX, but my opinion is I like it better, when I used the AxeFX everything I played felt stiff, to me the Helix feels better.

This is all subjective I know, I just hope your post doesn't put people off

Drew_TNBD

I don't have much of a problem with the feel tbh. It feels amp like to me. It's not as good as my diezel through a 4x12 but then nothing is.

Real amps are king for feel. To my mind this indisputable.

Sporky

Clarky said:

I'd like input level control over a delay and a reverb.. not a delay or a reverb… aaaahhghhhhh ! ! ! !

I think you could do that with a full-fat Helix and some patch leads to split the paths. I'll have a play this evening.

Jonathanthomas83

John_A said:

I do know you are a much more experienced than I am, and a better player, but I hope this isn't the start of a 1000 posts on TGP of 'the Helix doesn't feel right compared to the AxeFX'

I've spent more time wit the Helix than the AxeFX, but my opinion is I like it better, when I used the AxeFX everything I played felt stiff, to me the Helix feels better.

This is all subjective I know, I just hope your post doesn't put people off

It's all opinion though isn't it, being hopeful that certain posts won't put others off a product is a little bit of a moot point when you're pretty much saying the same thing inversely about the Axe FX.

Case in point was a couple of days ago people were saying that the Axe FX fans are too noisy. Personally, I noticed it when I first switched the unit on back in March, but even at low volume playing nowadays, I can't say I ever notice the fan on mine. Granted, the Axe FX has probably helped ruin my hearing even further! haha. Point is, people will always have an opinion on these things, it's up to us to figure out what's best for our needs :-)

guitarfishbay

John_A said:

its funny, I have no issues at all with the feel of the Helix amps.  Now I've spent some time with it, I think the mix coming back through my monitor feels the same as when I used a mic'd up 4x12,   I do know you are a much more experienced than I am, and a better player, but I hope this isn't the start of a 1000 posts on TGP of 'the Helix doesn't feel right compared to the AxeFX'

I've spent more time wit the Helix than the AxeFX, but my opinion is I like it better, when I used the AxeFX everything I played felt stiff, to me the Helix feels better.

This is all subjective I know, I just hope your post doesn't put people off

Thing is, they're all just different ways to solve problems that could be solved any number of ways.

People are going to form opinions you disagree with regardless if they've tried it or not - at least with the Native demo, Axe FX users can directly compare the modelling in a like for like scenario.

The AFX2 does what I want right out of the box and with very little time spent tweaking the amps using only basic controls, and even with using the advanced controls in the Helix Native plugin I'm not managing to find what I'm looking for.  That suggests to me I've got the right unit for my tastes, your post suggests you have the right unit for yours.

Clarky then has a whole extra set of problems on top, with all his crazy FX morphing stuff.  It might be that currently the only unit that can tick all his boxes is the Axe FX 2.

Drew also has a whole extra set of problems on top, and the Helix is a better solution for him given how many delays he wants in a patch -  I've genuinely been trying to talk him out of GASing for either an FX8 or Axe FX 2 in recent times because I don't think it'll work for him and I reckon he'll just get frustrated by the way the units work.

TGP will be TGP regardless of what we post here!