Recent events in Charlottesville.

BigBearKris

I know that we have numerous threads about Trump but in my opinion this is bigger than that, although related...

I'm just going to leave it here:

Winny_Pooh

Saw that video last night. Great reporting

Fretwired

The biggest danger is that the US splits up into states that declare themselves as countries. California is an obvious one as they are wealthy, liberal and want nothing to do with the the wack jobs next door.

I worked in Texas for a while and there's a movement down there to breakaway.

Chalky

I agree with you. Focusing on Trump and his stupid responses detracts from the fact that the right-wing Americans are feeling more able to take actions like this.  Trump's election was a catalyst but not a cause, and Charlottesville reminds us in the UK that the racial divide in America, especially outside the East and West Coast big cities, is still much greater than here.

Drew_TNBD

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

The biggest danger is that the US splits up into states that declare themselves as countries. California is an obvious one as they are wealthy, liberal and want nothing to do with the the wack jobs next door.

I worked in Texas for a while and there's a movement down there to breakaway.

I don't think that's a realistic possibility. There's no legal way for them to secede, so the only way they could do it is militarily - and no state has anywhere near enough grunt to take on the entire US military.

Even if it did come to that, the US would be embroiled in an internal conflict for years...the end result of that would most likely just be that they don't expend so much effort destabilising the rest of the world.

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

The biggest danger is that the US splits up into states that declare themselves as countries. California is an obvious one as they are wealthy, liberal and want nothing to do with the the wack jobs next door.

I worked in Texas for a while and there's a movement down there to breakaway.

I don't think that's a realistic possibility. There's no legal way for them to secede, so the only way they could do it is militarily - and no state has anywhere near enough grunt to take on the entire US military.

Even if it did come to that, the US would be embroiled in an internal conflict for years...the end result of that would most likely just be that they don't expend so much effort destabilising the rest of the world.

Civil War 2. They are still fighting the first one ...

goldtop

Same guy, a little later:

BigBearKris

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

I agree. There seem to be too much history, too much violence and no will to listen to the other side.

Watts riots. LA riots, then another one just about to happen when they acquitted OJ Simpson. Here we are, in 2017, year after America had their first black president.... 

crunchman

digitalscream said:

I don't think that's a realistic possibility. There's no legal way for them to secede, so the only way they could do it is militarily - and no state has anywhere near enough grunt to take on the entire US military.

If 80% of the population of a state like Texas voted to secede, then I think the federal government would find it very hard to send in the troops.

They would need an overwhelming majority though.  If they had a referendum and it was 52-48 like the Brexit vote then I couldn't see them leaving.

With the black and Hispanic population in the Southern States, I don't see any vote to leave ever getting the overwhelming majority that would be needed though.

digitalscream

crunchman said:

digitalscream said:

I don't think that's a realistic possibility. There's no legal way for them to secede, so the only way they could do it is militarily - and no state has anywhere near enough grunt to take on the entire US military.

If 80% of the population of a state like Texas voted to secede, then I think the federal government would find it very hard to send in the troops.

They would need an overwhelming majority though.  If they had a referendum and it was 52-48 like the Brexit vote then I couldn't see them leaving.

With the black and Hispanic population in the Southern States, I don't see any vote to leave ever getting the overwhelming majority that would be needed though.

Doesn't matter how many people vote for it, there is no legal way for it to happen; we could vote overwhelmingly to hang the Royals, but it wouldn't mean that anyone a) could, or b) should do it. The point about there being no legal way to do it, however, means that there is actually no way for them to pass a bill to hold such a referendum in the first place - it would be struck down by the courts before it even got signed.

That means that the only way to do it would be to break the law and do it by paramilitary force.

mellowsun

BigBearKris said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

I agree. There seem to be too much history, too much violence and no will to listen to the other side. 

Seriously, should anyone really be listening to people who shout 'Blood and soil', 'Heil Hitler' and 'Jews will not replace us' and trying to find some sort of middle ground or consensus with them?

Saying there is extremists on both sides is Trump's cop out, and serves to embolden the far right.

It saddens me that there seems to be some sort of implicit sympathy for the far right by some forum members here.

randella

mellowsun said:

It saddens me that there seems to be some sort of implicit sympathy for the far right by some forum members here.

For what it's worth, I have no truck with the far right neo-nazi pondlife, any more than I do with the extreme left and their variations.  I'm with you as far as disregarding their opinions goes, I tend to do just that myself with any sort of fundamentalist bigot.

That said, they still exist and there must be a reason for this.  As such, a willingness to examine both sides of an argument and to better understand why these extremists exist I don't think is necessarily implicit sympathy, but rather that taking a detached, academic view on the matter might help people learn.

Trump, on the other hand, is an inarticulate, incompetent twat harbouring no-doubt suspect political views and he's not helping anything at all.

ourmaninthenorth

goldtop said:

Same guy, a little later:

Ahhhh diddums....

I wonder if this counts as a "point for you"

Give me a fuckin break...

darthed1981

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

What's the middle ground?

If someone is talking nonsense about being replaced by Jews etc. how do you meet them in the middle.

I agree there probably is a middle ground on the economic and social concerns that give these kind of beliefs Oxygen, but how do you meet someone this disturbed in the middle?

digitalscream

darthed1981 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

What's the middle ground?

If someone is talking nonsense about being replaced by Jews etc. how do you meet them in the middle.

I agree there probably is a middle ground on the economic and social concerns that give these kind of beliefs Oxygen, but how do you meet someone this disturbed in the middle?

Just a thought, but they could send them all to an island where only members of their their crazy little echo chamber are allowed?

I'm sure nobody would object.

crunchman

digitalscream said:

crunchman said:

digitalscream said:

I don't think that's a realistic possibility. There's no legal way for them to secede, so the only way they could do it is militarily - and no state has anywhere near enough grunt to take on the entire US military.

If 80% of the population of a state like Texas voted to secede, then I think the federal government would find it very hard to send in the troops.

They would need an overwhelming majority though.  If they had a referendum and it was 52-48 like the Brexit vote then I couldn't see them leaving.

With the black and Hispanic population in the Southern States, I don't see any vote to leave ever getting the overwhelming majority that would be needed though.

Doesn't matter how many people vote for it, there is no legal way for it to happen; we could vote overwhelmingly to hang the Royals, but it wouldn't mean that anyone a) could, or b) should do it. The point about there being no legal way to do it, however, means that there is actually no way for them to pass a bill to hold such a referendum in the first place - it would be struck down by the courts before it even got signed.

That means that the only way to do it would be to break the law and do it by paramilitary force.

Change the law.  Laws change all the time.

I suspect that it would require a change to the US Constitution and getting the two thirds majority to do that that would not be simple.  It would require the likes of California, and the States of the North East, to want rid of the Trump voting States as much as the Southern States want to leave. While it is highly unlikely to happen in reality, it is theoretically possible and to say there is no legal way it can happen isn't correct.

If the Texas (or any other) State legislature passed a bill on a leave referendum, any legal idiocies to strike it down would cause mayhem that would make Charlottesville seem like a Sunday School Picnic.  At that point, I imagine that amending the constitution to defuse the situation might be regarded as a possible solution in Washington.

As I said above, given the sizeable black and Hispanic populations in large parts of the South, it's highly unlikely to actually happen as I can't see them voting to secede.  Yes, there will be some black and Hispanics who don't like some of the Supreme Court rulings that have been imposed on them against their religious beliefs, but I don't think that would be enough to swing any vote.  No state legislature would even try unless they believed that they had a majority on their side, which I don't think will happen.

Then again, a year ago I never thought that Corbyn had any chance of being PM.  That doesn't look so impossible now.

goldtop

mellowsun said:

BigBearKris said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

I agree. There seem to be too much history, too much violence and no will to listen to the other side. 

Seriously, should anyone really be listening to people who shout 'Blood and soil', 'Heil Hitler' and 'Jews will not replace us' and trying to find some sort of middle ground or consensus with them?

Saying there is extremists on both sides is Trump's cop out, and serves to embolden the far right.

It saddens me that there seems to be some sort of implicit sympathy for the far right by some forum members here.

Don't mistake the ability to condemn violence by "your own side" as implicit sympathy for the other side. Otherwise you become part of the problem. If you don't condemn red-plaid-shirt-guy in the OP's video, if you don't condemn the anti-fascists who maced Cantwell, if you don't hope that Eric Clanton is brought to justice, then don't be surprised when Cantwell's bunch of losers can't or won't do the same.

The ability to turn a blind eye to our own cause's misdeeds powers sectarian violence all over the world.

ourmaninthenorth

I had to re-read that @goldtop...I intially thought, why what the fook's Eric Clapton done now....???

Axe_meister

The problem with the states is that it is just too damn big. With the individual states having far too much power over education. If a state is already very right wing it will stay right wing. Then you have the fact that people just don't leave their own state let alone the US, so peoples frame of reference never changes.
Then you get the problem that well educated, centrist or left/right of centre teacher is less likely to move to a state with a very right wing agenda. So within a right wing state the far right might be tollerated so they think they are validated.

Drew_TNBD

mellowsun said:

BigBearKris said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

I agree. There seem to be too much history, too much violence and no will to listen to the other side. 

Seriously, should anyone really be listening to people who shout 'Blood and soil', 'Heil Hitler' and 'Jews will not replace us' and trying to find some sort of middle ground or consensus with them?

Saying there is extremists on both sides is Trump's cop out, and serves to embolden the far right.

It saddens me that there seems to be some sort of implicit sympathy for the far right by some forum members here.

It saddens me that you lack the critical skills to look at this situation in an objective manner. Analysing the situation does not equate to sympathy for the far right. And if you force such people underground, you only make them stronger. I think you might be potentially a very dangerous person Mr. mellowsun.

I'll let Tim Pool finish for me:

darthed1981 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

It's terrible. Extremists on all sides, no real leadership, and no appetite to reach any sort of consensus or middle ground.

What's the middle ground?

If someone is talking nonsense about being replaced by Jews etc. how do you meet them in the middle.

I agree there probably is a middle ground on the economic and social concerns that give these kind of beliefs Oxygen, but how do you meet someone this disturbed in the middle?

Well the middle ground is not tearing down a significant historical statue under the false premise of it being an icon of racism and oppression. That's the middle ground. The extremist positions are that the statue is a symbol of patriotism, or that the statue is a symbol of hate and racism.

Not everyone there protesting against the removal of the statue was a KKK, Nazi (neo or otherwise), Trump supporter, or member of the alt-right.

When you group people together and rob them of their individuality, it gives you enough of a reason to rob them of their humanity. Which is going on on both sides from what I've seen.