Recent events in Charlottesville.

Drew_TNBD

brojangles said:

(Whereas the alt-right has one of its own in the White House!) 

Who?? Because Trump denounced them, and Steve Bannon just left!!

brojangles

Trump - he clearly agrees with, or won't reject, the neoConfederates, and tweets racist fantasies about war crimes. That's alt right enough for me. 

Axe_meister

To me there is a fundamental difference between the two sides. One is an ideology with hate at it's very heart, the other is a protest movement with some members with violence at there very heart. I'd go as far to say those people actually are not part of the protest movement at all and just use any protest to play out there little fighting games.
We have the same in the UK with anarchists turning up at any protest march trying to cause trouble.

Drew_TNBD

brojangles said:

Trump - he clearly agrees with, or won't reject, the neoConfederates, and tweets racist fantasies about war crimes. That's alt right enough for me. 

Then you don't know what you're talking about. Watch this:


It's actually the complete opposite. He clearly DISAGREES with neoConfederates, and I don't know what your alluding to when you say racist fantasies of war crimes, but it strikes me as hyperbolic to the point of not even warranting much of a response.

ourmaninthenorth

Drew_TNBD said:

I'm not going to be drawn into defending myself from accusations that I am sympathetic to the KKK and Nazi party. Because I don't fucking agree with them and I despise both. My history of both of them is a little rusty and my wider points are being lost in the miasma.

I don't think that "nazi's bad, not-nazi's good" is a complex enough argument and it leaves a lot to be desired. That's my wider point.

As much as my historical knowledge is lacking on these issues, if you think the far-left (IE: the people who protested the protest in Charlottesville) are any better than the skinheads, then you just don't know enough about them.

Their ideology comes from a heady cocktail of Marxism, Leninism, Trotskyism, and Stalinism. All failed variants of socialism and communism. They are violent and will do whatever it takes to tear down Western capitalist democratic societies.

I am here simply to point that out and to defend classical liberalism and to encourage people to think of themselves as individuals instead of seeing themselves as part of a subset.

Richard Spencer is a spanner.

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that do they? For the record, I can read, ergo I don't. 

brojangles

I mean the 'shoot 49 Muslim insurgent with bullets dipped in pig blood, that'll show them' thing. And of course he doesn't disavow the right wing nutters, that's what, like, all the news has been about all week - false equivalence between both sides, claims that both had fine people etc. 

Drew_TNBD

brojangles said:

I mean the 'shoot 49 Muslim insurgent with bullets dipped in pig blood, that'll show them' thing. And of course he doesn't disavow the right wing nutters, that's what, like, all the news has been about all week - false equivalence between both sides, claims that both had fine people etc. 

Are you sure you're not just reacting to bogeymen that don't exist?? I literally have no idea what the 49 muslim insurgent thing refers to, and I just posted you a video which includes a snippet where Trump clearly disavows both sides.

It's not false equivalency. Literally all you need to do is use your eyes to see that.

Drew_TNBD

ourmaninthenorth said:

Drew_TNBD said:

I'm not going to be drawn into defending myself from accusations that I am sympathetic to the KKK and Nazi party. Because I don't fucking agree with them and I despise both. My history of both of them is a little rusty and my wider points are being lost in the miasma.

I don't think that "nazi's bad, not-nazi's good" is a complex enough argument and it leaves a lot to be desired. That's my wider point.

As much as my historical knowledge is lacking on these issues, if you think the far-left (IE: the people who protested the protest in Charlottesville) are any better than the skinheads, then you just don't know enough about them.

Their ideology comes from a heady cocktail of Marxism, Leninism, Trotskyism, and Stalinism. All failed variants of socialism and communism. They are violent and will do whatever it takes to tear down Western capitalist democratic societies.

I am here simply to point that out and to defend classical liberalism and to encourage people to think of themselves as individuals instead of seeing themselves as part of a subset.

Richard Spencer is a spanner.

I don't think anyone seriously thinks that do they? For the record, I can read, ergo I don't. 

It seems some people do. Like Emp_Fab, who literally said:

Fuck off... "Leftist extremists" my arse...   It was Nazis .... and not Nazis. 

Which is literally one of the most spasticated things that idiot fucking Welsh mongoloid has ever said. YAY! OFFENSIVE BINGO!

littlegreenman

Drew_TNBD said:

 I literally have no idea what the 49 muslim insurgent thing refers to.

Just FYI, nothing more.

There's a myth that General Pershing soaked 50 bullets in pigs blood and shot 49 Phillipino Muslim Terrorist captives (early 20thC), then released the 50th and told him to go back and tell his Bro's what to expect if they continued. Trump has quoted this debunked myth a few times to support his anti-Islam stance of how to proceed.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.asp

Placidcasual79

That VICE report is truly depressing. We should be ashamed. 

Violent and aggressive behaviour should be condemned to history. What ever your views and beliefs we all know fear, pain and suffering. How about some empathy for your fellow man. 

I think a more productive endeavour would be to explore what leads people into extremism. In my view its roots are in fear, anxiety and ignorance. As a result of the rise of Neo liberalism and the unchecked grip of global capitalism we have a society that focuses on the individual and necessity of competition. The socio economic conditions of today are a breeding ground for hate. The charade that is democracy in the west has long since been revealed. As a result people are scared, angry and looking for scapegoats. 

What we should actually be enraged by is the gross misappropriation of wealth, resources and power. More collective and inclusive societies/communities that encourage responsibility and reward contribution are more likely to produce tolerance, empathy and general wellbeing.

Or maybe I should open another beer.  

holnrew

Taking sides in this is as dumb as supporting a football team

57Deluxe

...what hope now for the Thatcher Stat then!??!

JezWynd

Drew_TNBD said:

brojangles said:

I mean the 'shoot 49 Muslim insurgent with bullets dipped in pig blood, that'll show them' thing. And of course he doesn't disavow the right wing nutters, that's what, like, all the news has been about all week - false equivalence between both sides, claims that both had fine people etc. 

Are you sure you're not just reacting to bogeymen that don't exist?? I literally have no idea what the 49 muslim insurgent thing refers to, and I just posted you a video which includes a snippet where Trump clearly disavows both sides.

It's not false equivalency. Literally all you need to do is use your eyes to see that.

Trump's record on truthfulness isn't great. He got where he is by telling people what they wanted to hear. Why change a winning formula now.

Drew_TNBD

JezWynd said:

Drew_TNBD said:

brojangles said:

I mean the 'shoot 49 Muslim insurgent with bullets dipped in pig blood, that'll show them' thing. And of course he doesn't disavow the right wing nutters, that's what, like, all the news has been about all week - false equivalence between both sides, claims that both had fine people etc. 

Are you sure you're not just reacting to bogeymen that don't exist?? I literally have no idea what the 49 muslim insurgent thing refers to, and I just posted you a video which includes a snippet where Trump clearly disavows both sides.

It's not false equivalency. Literally all you need to do is use your eyes to see that.

Trump's record on truthfulness isn't great. He got where he is by telling people what they wanted to hear. Why change a winning formula now.

Oh ok then.

Drew_TNBD

Placidcasual79 said:

That VICE report is truly depressing. We should be ashamed. 

Violent and aggressive behaviour should be condemned to history. What ever your views and beliefs we all know fear, pain and suffering. How about some empathy for your fellow man. 

I think a more productive endeavour would be to explore what leads people into extremism. In my view its roots are in fear, anxiety and ignorance. As a result of the rise of Neo liberalism and the unchecked grip of global capitalism we have a society that focuses on the individual and necessity of competition. The socio economic conditions of today are a breeding ground for hate. The charade that is democracy in the west has long since been revealed. As a result people are scared, angry and looking for scapegoats. 

What we should actually be enraged by is the gross misappropriation of wealth, resources and power. More collective and inclusive societies/communities that encourage responsibility and reward contribution are more likely to produce tolerance, empathy and general wellbeing.

Or maybe I should open another beer.  

Science disagrees with you.

Social communes have been a source of experimental evidence on social dynamics for decades. The outlook is grim. What you tend to see is lack of co-operation and more of a crab bucket mentality where the strongest most dominant people rule over the rest.

They don't produce tolerance or empathy. They produce violence.

We are hardwired for survival, and thus competition it seems.

Placidcasual79

Drew_TNBD said:

Placidcasual79 said:

That VICE report is truly depressing. We should be ashamed. 

Violent and aggressive behaviour should be condemned to history. What ever your views and beliefs we all know fear, pain and suffering. How about some empathy for your fellow man. 

I think a more productive endeavour would be to explore what leads people into extremism. In my view its roots are in fear, anxiety and ignorance. As a result of the rise of Neo liberalism and the unchecked grip of global capitalism we have a society that focuses on the individual and necessity of competition. The socio economic conditions of today are a breeding ground for hate. The charade that is democracy in the west has long since been revealed. As a result people are scared, angry and looking for scapegoats. 

What we should actually be enraged by is the gross misappropriation of wealth, resources and power. More collective and inclusive societies/communities that encourage responsibility and reward contribution are more likely to produce tolerance, empathy and general wellbeing.

Or maybe I should open another beer.  

Science disagrees with you.

Social communes have been a source of experimental evidence on social dynamics for decades. The outlook is grim. What you tend to see is lack of co-operation and more of a crab bucket mentality where the strongest most dominant people rule over the rest.

They don't produce tolerance or empathy. They produce violence.

We are hardwired for survival, and thus competition it seems.

I suspect your right - in fact the evidence is overwhelming. Stop at any random page in a history book are your likely find evidence to corroborate your point.

But hope springs eternal right? I spend my working life waist deep in human misery so I have to be optimistic about the possibilities of our evolution.

I choose to believe that a more collective, humanitarian world culture will eventually prevail - and that the current descent into hatred, bigotry, elitism and unsustainable environmental abuse is just a necessary step on the road to spiritual enlightenment.

Or maybe I should open another beer.

(Btw Drew did you come up with crab bucket mentality? F*cking genius that. I am totally having it)     

Drew_TNBD

Placidcasual79 said:

(Btw Drew did you come up with crab bucket mentality? F*cking genius that. I am totally having it)     

I actually stole it from some random anti-feminist I was following on Youtube for a while.

ewal

Drew_TNBD said:

brojangles said:

which is what the bulk of the Confederate statues were put up to do

This is where I'd like to see proof. Because I've not seen anyone provide any concrete evidence that this is why those Confederate statues were put there. I have seen proof that they were put there to honour the dead, because it's written on a lot of them.

If there was proof that these statues were put up several decades after the war to re-emphasise white superiority, would you have more sympathy towards the argument that they now should go?

Drew_TNBD

ewal said:

Drew_TNBD said:

brojangles said:

which is what the bulk of the Confederate statues were put up to do

This is where I'd like to see proof. Because I've not seen anyone provide any concrete evidence that this is why those Confederate statues were put there. I have seen proof that they were put there to honour the dead, because it's written on a lot of them.

If there was proof that these statues were put up several decades after the war to re-emphasise white superiority, would you have more sympathy towards the argument that they now should go?

Yes, or at the least into a museum. But I'd want true empirical truth, not conjecture.

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

Placidcasual79 said:

That VICE report is truly depressing. We should be ashamed. 

Violent and aggressive behaviour should be condemned to history. What ever your views and beliefs we all know fear, pain and suffering. How about some empathy for your fellow man. 

I think a more productive endeavour would be to explore what leads people into extremism. In my view its roots are in fear, anxiety and ignorance. As a result of the rise of Neo liberalism and the unchecked grip of global capitalism we have a society that focuses on the individual and necessity of competition. The socio economic conditions of today are a breeding ground for hate. The charade that is democracy in the west has long since been revealed. As a result people are scared, angry and looking for scapegoats. 

What we should actually be enraged by is the gross misappropriation of wealth, resources and power. More collective and inclusive societies/communities that encourage responsibility and reward contribution are more likely to produce tolerance, empathy and general wellbeing.

Or maybe I should open another beer.  

Science disagrees with you.

Social communes have been a source of experimental evidence on social dynamics for decades. The outlook is grim. What you tend to see is lack of co-operation and more of a crab bucket mentality where the strongest most dominant people rule over the rest.

They don't produce tolerance or empathy. They produce violence.

We are hardwired for survival, and thus competition it seems.

I'd hazard a guess the we're a largely hardwired to seek the familiar / kinship and find an "us" to be a part of
I know lots of English that live in Spain, been there for more than 10 years..
they've created their own English only community
they don't integrate much with the Spanish and don't speak the language
it's no different to any other type of isolated community in any other country
like Latino communities in the US, Asian communities in Europe
and likewise, the nationals of the host country don't like it and react against them..

personally I don't think it's good to behave like this, but's as if it's a perfectly natural thing to do