Recent events in Charlottesville.

Evilmags

Bunch of Antifas and rednecks knocking lumps out of each other in one town, in a country of over 200 m inhabitants and it's global news. Think things like Venezuela, North Korea ect are all somewhat more important. 

CabbageCat

mellowsun said:

Drew_TNBD said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

Using the Nazi's as a case example - they spoke, they were answered. My forefathers were part of those that went to answer them. 

Bring your children up Drew....they will be answered again. 

It's not Nazis we should worry about. It's militant fascist Islam

I'd say we need to worry about both.

The fact that you think we should listen to and try to understand Nazis makes me think you are a very dangerous person Mr Drew.

We've seen where previous attempts to listen to and understand Nazis have led to.

I think anyone who doesn't try to listen to and understand other people is massively more dangerous. Closed-mindedness and self-righteousness is what causes discord.

Sporky

mellowsun said:

The fact that you think we should listen to and try to understand Nazis makes me think you are a very dangerous person Mr Drew.

The fact that you think we should not try to understand those with whom we disagree makes you far more "dangerous", because you're advocating ignorance as a useful stance for dealing with extremism.

Fretwired

It's just like Germany in the 1930s - high unemployment and poverty among the white working classes who felt betrayed by the ruling elite; a politician who stoked this resentment by blaming their woes on bankers, liberals, foreigners and Jews; mass rallies, violence in the street .. the rest we know.

USA 2016 and mass unemployment and disillusionment in white working class areas of middle America was boiling over; they felt forgotten by the liberals and politicians in Washington; along comes Trump who'd obviously decided to follow Hitler in blaming liberals, Mexican's the Chinese, tree huggers, the climate change lobby and everyone else he could think of for their woes. This is why he won't denounce the people in Charlottesville  now.  This plays into his hands ...

And those with Nazi ideals have always existed in the US - there's now a lot more of them. You'll also find them in Russia and Eastern Europe and and Germany again. What goes round comes round.

mellowsun

CabbageCat said:

mellowsun said:

Drew_TNBD said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

Using the Nazi's as a case example - they spoke, they were answered. My forefathers were part of those that went to answer them. 

Bring your children up Drew....they will be answered again. 

It's not Nazis we should worry about. It's militant fascist Islam

I'd say we need to worry about both.

The fact that you think we should listen to and try to understand Nazis makes me think you are a very dangerous person Mr Drew.

We've seen where previous attempts to listen to and understand Nazis have led to.

I think anyone who doesn't try to listen to and understand other people is massively more dangerous. Closed-mindedness and self-righteousness is what causes discord.

So we should have an open mind to the KKK and Stormfront guys?

Y'all seem to forget that these dudes were once the dominant force in the South, lynching and enslaving with impunity. But now they are marginalised we should have an open mind to them?

Seriously what planet are you on?

mellowsun

I wish I'd stayed out of this discussion tbh, its way too depressing hearing people blaming SJWs and saying the left and right are basically the same and as bad as each other

Sporky

mellowsun said:

Y'all seem to forget that these dudes were once the dominant force in the South, lynching and enslaving with impunity. But now they are marginalised we should have an open mind to them?

You seem to be using "open mind" to suggest "accepting of their ideas". No-one is suggesting that.

If you don't want lynching and slavery to start up again then you need to understand what's motivating these people. It is quite possible that at its core is a reasonable concern (see Fretwired's post for examples) that - through constant marginalisation and belittlement - has turned to extremism. You can't fix the extremism without dealing with what leads to it, and that's not saying that extremism is OK.

This is the pragmatic approach to solving the problem, rather than the hysterical, emotional and fundamentally ineffective approach you're suggesting.

mellowsun

Sporky said:

rather than the hysterical, emotional and fundamentally ineffective approach you're suggesting.

Can you point me to the post where I suggested a hysterical approach?

mellowsun

Sporky said:

mellowsun said:

The fact that you think we should listen to and try to understand Nazis makes me think you are a very dangerous person Mr Drew.

The fact that you think we should not try to understand those with whom we disagree makes you far more "dangerous", because you're advocating ignorance as a useful stance for dealing with extremism.

I'd agree with you if this was a new phenomenon the way it was in the 1930s and we didn't know where it was going to lead.

But we've sat down and listened to Nazis in the past. It doesn't work. Once a group is at the point of carrying weapons, making Nazi salutes, and talking about 'many more will die before we are done', they need to be shut down.

At the same time, the left need to stop inflaming the situation. Meeting provocation with violence plays into the hands of the right and legitimises them - that I agree with. At the same time, it's understandable, because they have seen such marches go unopposed, out of fear, so often in the past.

So the state need to step in and not leave this to get out of hand further.

Sporky

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

rather than the hysterical, emotional and fundamentally ineffective approach you're suggesting.

Can you point me to the post where I suggested a hysterical approach?

All of the ones where you've opposed trying to understand the problem.

mellowsun

Sporky said:

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

rather than the hysterical, emotional and fundamentally ineffective approach you're suggesting.

Can you point me to the post where I suggested a hysterical approach?

All of the ones where you've opposed trying to understand the problem.

I'm opposed to giving Nazi's a public voice and a 'safe space' to spout their hatred. There's no reason to listen to or understand that.. If you think that's hysterical then that's unfortunate.

I'm all for understanding and listening to people's sense of alienation and powerlessness. But they've gone way beyond that, and now, with Trump at the helm, they see this as 'their time'.

Sporky

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

rather than the hysterical, emotional and fundamentally ineffective approach you're suggesting.

Can you point me to the post where I suggested a hysterical approach?

All of the ones where you've opposed trying to understand the problem.

I'm opposed to giving Nazi's a public voice and a 'safe space' to spout their hatred.

Which isn't what anyone here has suggested, is it?

Fretwired

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

rather than the hysterical, emotional and fundamentally ineffective approach you're suggesting.

Can you point me to the post where I suggested a hysterical approach?

All of the ones where you've opposed trying to understand the problem.

I'm opposed to giving Nazi's a public voice and a 'safe space' to spout their hatred. There's no reason to listen to or understand that.. If you think that's hysterical then that's unfortunate.

I'm all for understanding and listening to people's sense of alienation and powerlessness. But they've gone way beyond that, and now, with Trump at the helm, they see this as 'their time'.

Then prepare for war as that's what happens when the disenfranchised lose hope and find solace and inspiration in a warped ideology and a right-wing firebrand leader that is Trump. Take the moral high ground with all the other liberals and fail to understand what's happening in the US, UK, parts of Europe and the Middle East.

CabbageCat

mellowsun said:

CabbageCat said:

mellowsun said:

Drew_TNBD said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

Using the Nazi's as a case example - they spoke, they were answered. My forefathers were part of those that went to answer them. 

Bring your children up Drew....they will be answered again. 

It's not Nazis we should worry about. It's militant fascist Islam

I'd say we need to worry about both.

The fact that you think we should listen to and try to understand Nazis makes me think you are a very dangerous person Mr Drew.

We've seen where previous attempts to listen to and understand Nazis have led to.

I think anyone who doesn't try to listen to and understand other people is massively more dangerous. Closed-mindedness and self-righteousness is what causes discord.

So we should have an open mind to the KKK and Stormfront guys?

Y'all seem to forget that these dudes were once the dominant force in the South, lynching and enslaving with impunity. But now they are marginalised we should have an open mind to them?

Seriously what planet are you on?

The KKK and Stormfront are closed-minded and self-righteous. If they weren't then they would not be a problem.

Why, you might ask, should we listen to them when they won't listen to us?

Why, I would reply, should they listen to us if we won't listen to them?

One side has to be better than that to make a difference. From what I've read and what I know of humanity, neither side seems likely to.

mellowsun

Fretwired said:

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

rather than the hysterical, emotional and fundamentally ineffective approach you're suggesting.

Can you point me to the post where I suggested a hysterical approach?

All of the ones where you've opposed trying to understand the problem.

I'm opposed to giving Nazi's a public voice and a 'safe space' to spout their hatred. There's no reason to listen to or understand that.. If you think that's hysterical then that's unfortunate.

I'm all for understanding and listening to people's sense of alienation and powerlessness. But they've gone way beyond that, and now, with Trump at the helm, they see this as 'their time'.

Then prepare for war as that's what happens when the disenfranchised lose hope and find solace and inspiration in a warped ideology and a right-wing firebrand leader that is Trump. Take the moral high ground with all the other liberals and fail to understand what's happening in the US, UK, parts of Europe and the Middle East.

I disagree. The Nazis succeeded in Germany precisely because the German Liberal party believed Hitler was someone who could be understood and reasoned with.  This legitimised everything the Nazis stood for.

I completely agree that the cause of disenfranchisement and lost hope needs to be addressed. That does not contradict shutting down hate speech that celebrates and encourages genocide.

mellowsun

Sporky said:

Which isn't what anyone here has suggested, is it?

And likewise a hysterical approach is not what I've suggested, is it? That's your misinterpretation.

Enough misinterpretation on both sides!

Fretwired

mellowsun said:

Sporky said:

Which isn't what anyone here has suggested, is it?

And likewise a hysterical approach is not what I've suggested, is it? That's your misinterpretation.

Enough misinterpretation on both sides!

I don't think you've been hysterical FWIW.

antifash

Looks like all the answers to America's problems are here! Brilliant. I'll send a link over to Bannon immediately.  He's been waiting for this. Well done everyone. Middle ground with Nazis! That's what we need. Muslims are the problem! Excellent. (I think this is what Trump has been saying, but y'know.) 

I didn't know Paul Watson played guitar in a shit band. 

Sporky

mellowsun said:

And likewise a hysterical approach is not what I've suggested, is it? That's your misinterpretation.

Well, you kept insisting that anyone suggesting understanding was the way forward was more or less a Nazi sympathiser...

mellowsun said:

Enough misinterpretation on both sides!

It's  like the forum is mirroring the thing we're discussing!

Fair enough.

I am not suggesting appeasement of extremists - as you say, that's not historically been a terribly successful approach, but understanding is the key to solving the problem. Northern Ireland turned around because of discussion...

mellowsun

CabbageCat said:

The KKK and Stormfront are closed-minded and self-righteous. If they weren't then they would not be a problem.

Why, you might ask, should we listen to them when they won't listen to us?

Why, I would reply, should they listen to us if we won't listen to them?

One side has to be better than that to make a difference. From what I've read and what I know of humanity, neither side seems likely to.

I was wrong, and that's the best thing I've read all day, so thanks for that.