My AX8 vs Helix LT Journey

FarleyUK

guitarfishbay said:

Personally I prefer playing with a mono sound. Stereo FX can be nice but for the core dry sound mono works for me.  

Anyway regarding phase, if you want to use two IRs then either the IRs have to already be aligned (I think all raw OwnHammer IRs are aligned to each other, but not with other brands) or they have to be MPT - minimum phase transformed. In theory MPT changes the tone slightly as the phase information is changed to give a universal start point to IRs. This means you can blend any MPT files regardless of who shot them but it may sound different to a non MPT file.

Might be a stupid question, so bear with me.... but when I've mixed different IRs from the OH HHC2 pack (mainly a Greenback SM57 FRED and a Creamback 121 FRED), the stereo cab - when panned 100% left and right accordingly - seems to position the sound slightly 'off center'. Is this a phase issue?

guitarfishbay

FarleyUK said:

guitarfishbay said:

Personally I prefer playing with a mono sound. Stereo FX can be nice but for the core dry sound mono works for me.  

Anyway regarding phase, if you want to use two IRs then either the IRs have to already be aligned (I think all raw OwnHammer IRs are aligned to each other, but not with other brands) or they have to be MPT - minimum phase transformed. In theory MPT changes the tone slightly as the phase information is changed to give a universal start point to IRs. This means you can blend any MPT files regardless of who shot them but it may sound different to a non MPT file.

Might be a stupid question, so bear with me.... but when I've mixed different IRs from the OH HHC2 pack (mainly a Greenback SM57 FRED and a Creamback 121 FRED), the stereo cab - when panned 100% left and right accordingly - seems to position the sound slightly 'off center'. Is this a phase issue?

Probably not if you’re using both from the same folder (either both raw or both MPT) and otherwise aren’t getting phase issues. Phase issues usually sound like something is being sucked out of the sound.

Whats more likely is the frequency balance (and/or [perceived] volume) is throwing you off a bit. Typically a 121 has a lot of low end, which you’ll notice extra on palm mutes, and not too much high end, whereas an SM57 has a tighter low end and is much more aggressive from the upper mids (so will probably cut through as louder when playing open notes).

You could see if there’s a suitable OH1 (SM57&121 blend) IR and try a mono cab. Or you could try blending your two primary IRs in mono in cab lab if you have that. If you want to use stereo for harder rock playing I personally wouldn’t want such drastically different sounds left and right but that’s just my own tastes (plus I’d personally just stick with mono).

I know what you mean by off centre because every time someone uploads a clip of a stereo guitar sound with hard panning and a bright sound on one side and a bassy sound on the other it makes me feel like my head is tilting when it goes between palm mutes and open chords. I am possibly more sensitive to this than many though as most people seem fine with it

FarleyUK

guitarfishbay said:

FarleyUK said:

guitarfishbay said:

Personally I prefer playing with a mono sound. Stereo FX can be nice but for the core dry sound mono works for me.  

Anyway regarding phase, if you want to use two IRs then either the IRs have to already be aligned (I think all raw OwnHammer IRs are aligned to each other, but not with other brands) or they have to be MPT - minimum phase transformed. In theory MPT changes the tone slightly as the phase information is changed to give a universal start point to IRs. This means you can blend any MPT files regardless of who shot them but it may sound different to a non MPT file.

Might be a stupid question, so bear with me.... but when I've mixed different IRs from the OH HHC2 pack (mainly a Greenback SM57 FRED and a Creamback 121 FRED), the stereo cab - when panned 100% left and right accordingly - seems to position the sound slightly 'off center'. Is this a phase issue?

Probably not if you’re using both from the same folder (either both raw or both MPT) and otherwise aren’t getting phase issues. Phase issues usually sound like something is being sucked out of the sound.

Whats more likely is the frequency balance (and/or [perceived] volume) is throwing you off a bit. Typically a 121 has a lot of low end, which you’ll notice extra on palm mutes, and not too much high end, whereas an SM57 has a tighter low end and is much more aggressive from the upper mids (so will probably cut through as louder when playing open notes).

You could see if there’s a suitable OH1 (SM57&121 blend) IR and try a mono cab. Or you could try blending your two primary IRs in mono in cab lab if you have that. If you want to use stereo for harder rock playing I personally wouldn’t want such drastically different sounds left and right but that’s just my own tastes (plus I’d personally just stick with mono).

I know what you mean by off centre because every time someone uploads a clip of a stereo guitar sound with hard panning and a bright sound on one side and a bassy sound on the other it makes me feel like my head is tilting when it goes between palm mutes and open chords. I am possibly more sensitive to this than many though as most people seem fine with it

Cheers, will try that - only have two seperate cabs panned hard left and right as with my other band I have one speaker either side of the drummer - and being the only guitarist I assumed it'd give a 'bigger' sound (which it seemed to have done).

Clarky

guitarfishbay said:

Roland said:

Devin Townsend has just posted his journey to digital on the Fractal forum. It makes interesting reading. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/my-journey-to-fractal-by-devin-townsend-part-1-2.132432/

Interesting read.

Respect to Devin for making an artistic decision over a financial one:

 “I was working with many amp companies, but I have made my choice and have settled on a single Axe Fx 2XL+ for my ENTIRE chain. Out of respect, I will return the gear I have accumulated from other companies so there is hopefully no bad feelings. This tone quest of mine has only ever been rooted in what works best for me and my needs, and obviously may not work for you. It has also not included what may be wise for me business wise, as I have been offered 2 signature amps from companies recently that I have turned down as well in lieu of simply using the Axe Fx.”

Guy is such an incredible musician, not to everyone’s tastes but I think he’s mega. For valentines this year my g/f got us both tickets to see him live, it was awesome...

you just got to tip your hat to that..
I feel exactly the same..
ok so profile wise I'm like league division 6... lol..
but even so, I'll only endorse / be sponsored for kit I use and believe in [and go buy myself even if there was no deal available]
he's a man after my own heart in this respect ..

Clarky

firepaulmusic said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

firepaulmusic said:

firepaulmusic said:

Clarky said:

firepaulmusic said:

FarleyUK said:

firepaulmusic said:

Incoming AX8 tomorrow and got Friday off to programme and try it out!

Good stuff - congrats!

I’d highly suggest the Fractal forums (and this thread) to have a read through - there’s a tips and tricks thread on the Fractal forums that is very handy indeed.

Well its here and it looks quality! What are the chances of getting enough sounds ready for a gig on Saturday night? 

if you've not got the opportunity to rehearse with it before the gig I'd not use it..
what sounds great in isolation and what sounds great with the band is not the same...
you may be inviting agro on yourself

Take your point about rehearsing with it first, although it's in a boozer so I could sound check with it and chicken out if I'm not happy I suppose. I'm really used to going DI over the years so can pretty well estimate what is gonna sound right. Plus I'll be programming through my PA top cabs. . 

You were absolutely right about trying to use the AX8 without trying it w it's the full band first Clarky. Good job I had done a 4-cable method patch so I could revert to my amp. A bit of work to do yet then.....

What happened?

Got to the pub, band half set up. I bring the PA so got that set up. Didn't bother bringing my amp in as feeling quite confident with hastily put together AX8 patches. Plugged it into the XR18 digital desk and fired it up expecting the same rich Suhr Badger patch I had going on at home through my PA tops. Instead greeted by an overly edgy sound with way too much gain. No FRFR meant it also sounded a bit empty in front of the band. Need to bring the laptop to the next rehearsal and tweak some sounds with the band...

I kind of expected this...
you have to dial in the unit to whatever your monitoring system is...
even the plethora of FRFR systems all sound different..
your backline / monitoring has to be consistent

Clarky

peteri said:

One of the many brilliant bits of advice from Clarky in this thread was to not be afraid of filters.

I've found this really useful in the reverb, setting quite a high low cut and quite a lot high cut - lets you tune how much the reverb 'sounds' and hence how live it feels

also remember that if you want to eq just the reverb or delay.. 
they have EQ capabilities within the block itself

firepaulmusic

Getting really attached to the AX8 now just need to get into how to make changes quickly on the fly without AX Edit. Got to come to a decision soon whether to move on the Helix, way too much moola tied up at the moment...

Clarky

firepaulmusic said:

Getting really attached to the AX8 now just need to get into how to make changes quickly on the fly without AX Edit. Got to come to a decision soon whether to move on the Helix, way too much moola tied up at the moment...

for live... I'd suggest avoiding making changes on the fly unless they are performance related via expression pedals [like tone morphing or fading fx in / out]
on stage, no matter what fx unit you use, your config should be sorted and locked down
maybe during soundcheck / line check a small compensatory Global EQ tweak if need be..
but other than that, you should leave the unit alone on stage..

if you start fiddling whilst playing live, you run the risk of chasing your tone..
and end up fiddling with the unit throughout the live performance..
this is undesirable because:
- you have a mind on playing / performing and another on your tone.. this invites mistakes
- you'll constantly be either turning your back on the audience to get to your rack / squatting down to fiddle with the unit on the floor.. it looks bad and unprofessional from the audience perspective [and promoters / label / management etc if they are at the show]

take great time and care nailing your config at home
then book a rehearsal room and test it again at gig levels in context over backing tracks [mp3 from smartphone / iPod etc through the PA works just fine].. this gets you to within 95% of your target config..
then refine the details during a band rehearsal [because you are in full context and it's safe to ask them to stop as you refine the details]..
then never touch it again

peteri

firepaulmusic said:

Getting really attached to the AX8 now just need to get into how to make changes quickly on the fly without AX Edit. Got to come to a decision soon whether to move on the Helix, way too much moola tied up at the moment...

Is there something about the Helix which attracts you more? Just curious

firepaulmusic

peteri said:

firepaulmusic said:

Getting really attached to the AX8 now just need to get into how to make changes quickly on the fly without AX Edit. Got to come to a decision soon whether to move on the Helix, way too much moola tied up at the moment...

Is there something about the Helix which attracts you more? Just curious

peteri said:

firepaulmusic said:

Getting really attached to the AX8 now just need to get into how to make changes quickly on the fly without AX Edit. Got to come to a decision soon whether to move on the Helix, way too much moola tied up at the moment...

Is there something about the Helix which attracts you more? Just curious

I already have the Helix and am pretty happy with it as a 4-cable method unit for amps. Loved the UI and how simple it is to make changes, scribble strips etc. The AX8 nails amp modelling direct though and to me that is really useful as I go out solo with tracks occasionally as well. I just want to be sure I'll get along with the AX8 for both applications before shifting the Helix.

firepaulmusic

Clarky said:

firepaulmusic said:

Getting really attached to the AX8 now just need to get into how to make changes quickly on the fly without AX Edit. Got to come to a decision soon whether to move on the Helix, way too much moola tied up at the moment...

for live... I'd suggest avoiding making changes on the fly unless they are performance related via expression pedals [like tone morphing or fading fx in / out]
on stage, no matter what fx unit you use, your config should be sorted and locked down
maybe during soundcheck / line check a small compensatory Global EQ tweak if need be..
but other than that, you should leave the unit alone on stage..

if you start fiddling whilst playing live, you run the risk of chasing your tone..
and end up fiddling with the unit throughout the live performance..
this is undesirable because:
- you have a mind on playing / performing and another on your tone.. this invites mistakes
- you'll constantly be either turning your back on the audience to get to your rack / squatting down to fiddle with the unit on the floor.. it looks bad and unprofessional from the audience perspective [and promoters / label / management etc if they are at the show]

take great time and care nailing your config at home
then book a rehearsal room and test it again at gig levels in context over backing tracks [mp3 from smartphone / iPod etc through the PA works just fine].. this gets you to within 95% of your target config..
then refine the details during a band rehearsal [because you are in full context and it's safe to ask them to stop as you refine the details]..
then never touch it again

Good advice which I shall heed! Thanks

Jonathanthomas83

I didn’t really wanna jump in on this but it seems like it’s turned into the Fractal equivalent of the Helix thread, what do you guys think?

however, I have a question. After Firepauls experience, I decided to go all mono on my cabs and wanted to try out some Celestion IRs. My main question is how do I know which stock IRs have Mics and which I should add Mics to? I could add Mics to any of them, in some cases it sounds better to me, but the problem is I added it to my Celestion IR which was recorded with a 57 and 421, adding a 421 in Axe Edit made it sound slighty clearer to my tastes but feels wrong doung that so tried to replicate that using a PEQ block. Fact is, I’m not experienced enough with mixing to know if this is me thinking it sounds great in my bedroom or if it will actually sound good in a mix.

Sorry, thats a very broad question, but essentially there are a lot of parameters in the cab block and not sure that I should use any of them when using 3rd party IRs as it feels bad! I assume Fractal have some IRs in the box that should be manipulated using parameters in the cab block, but how do I know which IRs they are?

cheers

firepaulmusic

Clarky said:

firepaulmusic said:

Getting really attached to the AX8 now just need to get into how to make changes quickly on the fly without AX Edit. Got to come to a decision soon whether to move on the Helix, way too much moola tied up at the moment...

for live... I'd suggest avoiding making changes on the fly unless they are performance related via expression pedals [like tone morphing or fading fx in / out]
on stage, no matter what fx unit you use, your config should be sorted and locked down
maybe during soundcheck / line check a small compensatory Global EQ tweak if need be..
but other than that, you should leave the unit alone on stage..

if you start fiddling whilst playing live, you run the risk of chasing your tone..
and end up fiddling with the unit throughout the live performance..
this is undesirable because:
- you have a mind on playing / performing and another on your tone.. this invites mistakes
- you'll constantly be either turning your back on the audience to get to your rack / squatting down to fiddle with the unit on the floor.. it looks bad and unprofessional from the audience perspective [and promoters / label / management etc if they are at the show]

take great time and care nailing your config at home
then book a rehearsal room and test it again at gig levels in context over backing tracks [mp3 from smartphone / iPod etc through the PA works just fine].. this gets you to within 95% of your target config..
then refine the details during a band rehearsal [because you are in full context and it's safe to ask them to stop as you refine the details]..
then never touch it again

Good advice which I shall heed! Thanks

Roland

Jonathanthomas83 said:

.... how do I know which stock IRs have Mics and which I should add Mics to? ... there are a lot of parameters in the cab block and not sure that I should use any of them ...

IIRC you only have to select a mic if you want it to sound like a mic’d Cabinet, eg when recording. You can also select the distance between mic and fabric to reduce the treble that is inherent in close micing. I’ve played with both. They were useful in the past. Nowadays I don’t bother. 

Jonathanthomas83 said:

I didn’t really wanna jump in on this but it seems like it’s turned into the Fractal equivalent of the Helix thread, what do you guys think?

Well, we could start one with a different title ... if anyone thinks it’s important.

Jonathanthomas83

Roland said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

.... how do I know which stock IRs have Mics and which I should add Mics to? ... there are a lot of parameters in the cab block and not sure that I should use any of them ...

IIRC you only have to select a mic if you want it to sound like a mic’d Cabinet, eg when recording. You can also select the distance between mic and fabric to reduce the treble that is inherent in close micing. I’ve played with both. They were useful in the past. Nowadays I don’t bother. 

Thanks, Roland, so how do you do it now, 3rd party IR or your own, I guess, with no Mic and none of the cab parameters associated with Mic placement? 

As an update, I've just played around for the last hour or so and found that my tone is better now I've stopped using Mic's in the cab block altogether. I put a preamp on each of my presets too and I've just removed that too, so everything is sounding good and the CPU usage has come right down. Also only using mono cabs now so all stereo is managed with FX after the cab, so it'll be easier to switch mono and know that the Cab isn't doing anything it shouldn't.

Roland said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

I didn’t really wanna jump in on this but it seems like it’s turned into the Fractal equivalent of the Helix thread, what do you guys think?

Well, we could start one with a different title ... if anyone thinks it’s important.

Happy to do that if people think its worth it and it'll gain traction.

guitarfishbay

I think all the stock IRs are shot with mics. Adding a mic model is a taste thing, if you like the sound then do it. Personally I don’t use the feature

Jonathanthomas83

I guess I don't get why you'd add another mic to the IR? I'm trying to get my head around why the feature exists if most (all) IR's are shot with Mics? You're adding a MD421 to an IR with an MD421 already in there, I guess!?!

Definitely heard an improvement since removing them...although must admit, I thought it sounded better when I first got the unit, guess tastes change over time.

Roland

Jonathanthomas83 said:

... so how do you do it now, 3rd party IR or your own, I guess, with no Mic and none of the cab parameters associated with Mic placement? 

Once upon a time we needed to use all sorts of tricks to tailor the sound. As the modelling got better the sound became clearer, and fewer tricks were needed. I’ve gradually ditched mics, mic placement, 6ms delay between two IRs in a stereo cab, PEQ, and mixed IRs as they became unnecessary.

I’ve been a long term Ownhammer user, having contributed to Kevin’s Kickstarter fund because I thought his IRs were the clearest, and wanted to see the technology improve. With humbuckers I still use one of his 2x12 IRs. For single coils I’m currently using a 4x12 IR. I can’t remember whether it’s one of Kevin’s, or Fractal Audio’s own.