The Ashes Winter 2017/18 Thread

crunchman

You are right.  We haven't had anyone retiring mid-tour, or leaving the tour with mental health issues.

I think there is a real issue with Moeen though.  Boycott was saying the other day that he isn't suited to Australian conditions.  Apparently he puts underspin on the ball, where you need to be putting topspin on the ball to maximise the bounce.  The injury hasn't helped him, but we have to find a better spinner.  He'd be ok as a second spinner in spinning conditions.  You wouldn't mind so much if he was batting well, but Lyon has him on toast.

scrumhalf

Australia - well, they have fast bouncy pitches; we're not used to them and we don't come up with the type of bowler who would make the most of them,

India/Sri Lanka/Bangladesh - well, they have spinners' pitches; we're not used to them and we don't come up with the type of bowler who would make the most of them,

Looks like New Zealand is the only away series we can hope to win.

crunchman

scrumhalf said:

Australia - well, they have fast bouncy pitches; we're not used to them and we don't come up with the type of bowler who would make the most of them,

India/Sri Lanka/Bangladesh - well, they have spinners' pitches; we're not used to them and we don't come up with the type of bowler who would make the most of them,

Looks like New Zealand is the only away series we can hope to win.

There are some grounds in South Africa that swing, and I think their domestic cricket is in a mess, so when Amla and company retire they won't be much better off than us.

West Indies are utterly awful at the moment so we can probably win that on any kind of pitch.

VimFuego

I wonder if some sort of universal wicket could be devised. Obviously you can't control atmospheric conditions, but you could set a standard for the composition, grass type, moisture tolerances and so on for a wicket. Been a long time since I covered how sports pitches are made, but the science behind is pretty well understood, at the high level they don't just happen out of local materials, they bring in tons of soil, sub soil, sub base and so on, all to specific requirements.

earwighoney

VimFuego said:

I wonder if some sort of universal wicket could be devised. Obviously you can't control atmospheric conditions, but you could set a standard for the composition, grass type, moisture tolerances and so on for a wicket. Been a long time since I covered how sports pitches are made, but the science behind is pretty well understood, at the high level they don't just happen out of local materials, they bring in tons of soil, sub soil, sub base and so on, all to specific requirements.

The multitude of different pitches/conditions etc is what makes cricket the sport it is to take the away would rob the sport of it's character. 

England have won series in India & Australia over the last 10 years and that was down to having better players than the ones in the team at this moment in time.  

It's incredibly exciting to see players develop who are able to compete in conditions which are alien to them.  It's the prevalence of such players which makes the ones which are great all the more enjoyable to watch.  

Teetonetal

VimFuego said:

I wonder if some sort of universal wicket could be devised. Obviously you can't control atmospheric conditions, but you could set a standard for the composition, grass type, moisture tolerances and so on for a wicket. Been a long time since I covered how sports pitches are made, but the science behind is pretty well understood, at the high level they don't just happen out of local materials, they bring in tons of soil, sub soil, sub base and so on, all to specific requirements.

Oh God no. The whole point of Cricket is to prove you can adapt to the different global conditions. Everyone ought to win at home... its the special ones who win away. The England wins in Australia and India have worth precisely because it is a challenge.

shrinkwrap

A standard pitch would take all the variation and exceptional skill out of the game!
The same soils won't work in every location either.

We've thrashed the aussies before and it will happen again.
Even if Broad is out for the rest - which I doubt, the selection process seems spineless - I bet he will be back in the next home series as conditions will favour him again.

crunchman

shrinkwrap said:

A standard pitch would take all the variation and exceptional skill out of the game!
The same soils won't work in every location either.

We've thrashed the aussies before and it will happen again.
Even if Broad is out for the rest - which I doubt, the selection process seems spineless - I bet he will be back in the next home series as conditions will favour him again.

Broad hasn't been great at home recently.  Look at the figures from the most recent English summer:

WI Series

Anderson 19 wickets at 14 average

Stokes 9 at 22

Roland-Jones 7 at 16

Broad 9 at 36.

SA Series

Anderson 20 at 14

Roland-Jones 10 at 22

Broad 9 at 32

Looking at those numbers, he's not even worth selecting in English conditions.  His average is more than double Anderson's, and significantly worse than Toby Roland-Jones.

Woakes wasn't fit in the summer, but based on 2016 he should be selected ahead of Broad as well.  Against Pakistan he took 26 wickets at 16.7 compared 13 wickets at 28.6 for Broad.  He's also a better batsman than Broad.

You are probably right that they won't drop him, but they should.

Heartfeltdawn

crunchman said:

With Stokes back, I'd have the following top 6:

Cook

Stoneman

Root

Bairstow

Malan

Stokes

That would be pretty good.  I know Root doesn't want to bat 3, but Bairstow, Malan and Stokes aren't suited to it.  You still have too many left handers there, but I think it's the best we have.

If you play Foakes as keeper then that leaves 4 bowlers to select. 

The spinner is an issue.  In England, New Zealand, or South Africa, where it will swing for our fast bowlers, you might get away with Ali, and it would stiffen the batting a little bit.  Anywhere else, and you would need a proper spin bowler.  I'm just not sure we have one.  If Crane isn't ready then Adil Rashid is probably still the least bad option for now.  If Rashid struggles and you want a few overs of non-penetrating off spin to give the fast bowlers a rest, then Root can do that pretty much as well as Ali.

As for the fast bowling, Broad has to go.  Anderson is still there for the moment, and Woakes does stiffen the batting.  You don't want to go back to the days when you had Alan Mullaly batting at 9!  Woakes would be ok as a 3rd or 4th seamer.  I think you play Anderson, Woakes and then one of Wood, Jamie Overton, George Garton etc.

They'll keep Ali for the future. Bayliss brought Dawson in as first spinner on the basis that he could keep things tighter than Moeen. Rashid wasn't in the frame because he's not a restricting spinner. 

Broad is getting the blame and people are pulling out statistics whilst seldom mentioning the number of dropped catches he had off his bowling last summer. One article had him down as having 11 catches dropped off his bowling (8 against WI, 3 against SA). As a whole, England dropped 16 catches against West Indies in three Tests: when half of them come off one bowler, that's not going to do wonders for your figures. Prior to this Ashes series, the leading wicket taker for England across the series played 2013-2015 was Broad. 

If people were lining up to replace Broad, then the argument is stronger but we don't have anyone. Wood isn't bowling well enough. Jamie Overton has played 45 first class games in six seasons, an indication of the injury and loss of rhythm problems he has had. George Garton isn't ready, Olly Stone is coming back from injury, TR-J is injured, Mark Footitt looks like being on the periphery despite being the best left armer we have... when you look at last year's CC Divsion 1 averages, then the top names up there who are England qualified are Sam Cook and Jamie Porter. Both are fast medium, Porter is coming back to fitness. Ben Coad? RA Fast medium... Saqib Mahmood? RA FM... even if you are quick, it doesn't count for much if you're on a dead deck. Ask Marchant De Lange how it went bowling on that dunghile in Cardiff last year in Division 2... 

crunchman said:

You are right.  We haven't had anyone retiring mid-tour, or leaving the tour with mental health issues.

I think there is a real issue with Moeen though.  Boycott was saying the other day that he isn't suited to Australian conditions.  Apparently he puts underspin on the ball, where you need to be putting topspin on the ball to maximise the bounce.  The injury hasn't helped him, but we have to find a better spinner.  He'd be ok as a second spinner in spinning conditions.  You wouldn't mind so much if he was batting well, but Lyon has him on toast.

Yes. I'd liken it to bowling into the wicket a lot more. The First Test at the Gabba was a prime example. On a wicket with tennis ball bounce, getting that ball into the wicket more is how you get the most out of it. Moeen isn't the type of spinner to do that. Someone like Anil Kumble was and would have been lethal on that slow poofy bouncing kind of wicket. Lyon has adapted his bowling well on the different pitches this series. 

One aspect of bowling is being able to bowl a spell on a pitch that is giving you little. Lots of young bowlers won't learn that because we're in the T20 mindset of short spells, rotate around, put on some part-timers. Our pitches are more conducive to dibbly dobbly part time seamers than to frontline spinners. 

crunchman

Heartfeltdawn said: 

If people were lining up to replace Broad, then the argument is stronger but we don't have anyone.

Don't think that is true.  Woakes and Craig Overton both have better records than him in this series - and they haven't had the benefit of using the new ball.  Woakes had a much better record when they played together in 2016.  Woakes and Overton are both better batsmen, and probably better fielders as well.  If you are going to drop someone when Stokes comes back then on current form it has to be Broad.

Ok Broad was unlucky with dropped catches in the summer, but he's just been rubbish this winter.  Watching him trundle in and bowl at 78mph the other day was depressing.  I said above, he's just lost his zip.  He's like Gillespie in 2005 - who was younger than Broad is now.

You also need to think about the future.  If you keep Broad in the team now, then him and Anderson will probably both go at the same time in a year or two and you will have two very inexperienced opening bowlers at the same time.  Drop Broad now and keep Anderson while he's still playing well, and blood another opening bowler.  At least they have a chance to get some experience before the next home Ashes.

scrumhalf

Excellent article from George Dobell on Cricinfo (if you can get the bugger to load) although he obviously nicked much of it from our discussions here!

guitars4you

Day 2 MCG - well that is a better day - 7 wickets for us and Cook + Root show more of what they are about - to little to late for the Ashes but let's put some pride back and stop a 5-0 defeat and some personal pride for those concerned

Neill

To me this is just making matters worse.  Of course they can do it now - there's no pressure.  That just throws into focus how inadequate our side is when the result really matters.

VimFuego

well, they're playing for pride now, but at least they're showing some.

axisus

I'd take a draw now. Anything to avoid a whitewash.

axisus

Neill said:

To me this is just making matters worse.  Of course they can do it now - there's no pressure.  That just throws into focus how inadequate our side is when the result really matters.

Not making matters worse. I can assure you that they want to stuff us 5-0. There is still a lot a stake to be honest even though the Ashes have gone. Come on England!

shrinkwrap

Neill said:

To me this is just making matters worse.  Of course they can do it now - there's no pressure.  That just throws into focus how inadequate our side is when the result really matters.

Bollocks.
It's not all down to skill and spirit - there's luck involved, injuries, sickness, not everyone is always at the top of their game. Collapses happen to all teams. Show some support!

RandallFlagg

I'm pleased for Cook, he looked relieved to have scored that century. It was a good day for England. Match isn't won yet though, far from it.

crunchman

Stayed up far too late watching the first two sessions.

Why does Broad only bowl well when he's iunder pressure because he's been rubbish?

Teetonetal

200 for cook! Dropped twice by smith, so that's been costly.