Putin's Poisoners at it in Salisbury

ToneControl

roundthebend said:

@Fretwired ;
That Craig Murray article is a reasonable read. I've no idea who he is but he makes a few decent points and makes me pause for thought.

I think the evidence we have is circumstantial so far. But their story just doesn't feel right. If we accept that Salisbury is a tourist destination worth dropping in for a couple of days, and that staying in Central London rather than Salisbury itself is a sensible idea, then I'm left with one question:

"Given you're on a brief visit to see Salisbury Cathedral and Stonehenge, wouldn't it be prudent to arrive in the city much earlier than 11:48 and to know where you're going so you don't get lost?"

the average salary in Russia is $300-$450 a month, based on where you look

What is the likelihood of 2 "normal" Russians taking a 2 day break in London, which would cost 2 or 3 months salary, to go to Salisbury for and hour or two?

ToneControl

What I don't understand is why they dragged the guys out to be interviewed

Clearly it makes the story way more unbelievable, is it just to take the piss?
Does it appeal to Russians who actually support the murder attempts?

Heartfeltdawn

Indeed, TC. When you consider that the hotel for three nights (Friday to Sunday) was £60 x3 = £180, the train tickets bought on the day on Friday were £34 to £40 each so £80, same again Saturday so another £80, all the travel from airports around London and suchlike would have mounted up and it's a fair bet they didn't use their bank card for Oyster... 

Emp_Fab

ToneControl said:

What I don't understand is why they dragged the guys out to be interviewed

Clearly it makes the story way more unbelievable, is it just to take the piss?

My take on it is that they thought it was a plausible denial.  They actually thought that we would fall for the horseshit.  Look at the way Russia is run.  Look at the corruption.  Nuanced gameplay is not their forte.  They've fed barely credulous shite to their own people for decades and it's 'believed' - either out of genuine institutionalised behaviour or fear.  Either way, when the Russian authorities say 'They all fell down the stairs', nobody questions it.  I think the powers that be are so used to this strategy working that they are stupid enough to think that the rest of the world will accept it too.  I don't think they're taking the piss - I think they're just thick.

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

What I don't understand is why they dragged the guys out to be interviewed

Clearly it makes the story way more unbelievable, is it just to take the piss?
Does it appeal to Russians who actually support the murder attempts?

In a way. They can put these two guys on screen, throw out a bullshit story, and sit back laughing that nobody can do a fucking thing and that some citizens of the country where the poisoning took place will believe them. 

Emp says the Russians are thick. They aren't. What they are is knowing that there isn't a power in the world that can hold them truly accountable right now. The UN is powerless, the US beset with its own issues. 

ICBM

They aren't thick at all - they're openly trolling. The goal - as well as the death and intimidation of Russian dissidents overseas, and to show they can act with complete impunity - is simply to sow fear, doubt and confusion in the West. While any properly rational person can see that these two did it, and most likely on orders coming down from much higher up, there are a minority who will believe the Russian account and feed it into the general distrust of Western governments by conspiracists, which in turn has the power to influence politics. Trump's success is at least partly a result of it, whether or not the Russians directly meddled in the election.

A West which is disunited, doubting of its own governments, supporting of anti-establishment politicians, happy to break the status quo for the sake of it and apparently impotent in the face of a ruthless and decisive enemy is perfectly in Putin's interests. And that doesn't mean in any way that our governments are trustworthy, which just makes it even easier for him.

Heartfeltdawn

One element I didn't know: independent Russian media started digging when their names were released and found flight records and passport details. 

The two passports were numbered sequentially. 

Long odds on that happening. 

JezWynd

Putin's smirk, priceless.

Looking at that face, I can almost believe in the 'super race of reptiles ruling the planet' conspiracy theory.

Emp_Fab

There are a lot of emphatic statements in this thread.. Remember that none of us know anything really.  All we can contribute are our own opinions.  I believe the Russians are both stupid that they think we might believe this rubbish but also don't actually care whether we do or don't, such is their bullishness about their global standing.

darthed1981

ICBM said:

They aren't thick at all - they're openly trolling. The goal - as well as the death and intimidation of Russian dissidents overseas, and to show they can act with complete impunity - is simply to sow fear, doubt and confusion in the West. While any properly rational person can see that these two did it, and most likely on orders coming down from much higher up, there are a minority who will believe the Russian account and feed it into the general distrust of Western governments by conspiracists, which in turn has the power to influence politics. Trump's success is at least partly a result of it, whether or not the Russians directly meddled in the election.

A West which is disunited, doubting of its own governments, supporting of anti-establishment politicians, happy to break the status quo for the sake of it and apparently impotent in the face of a ruthless and decisive enemy is perfectly in Putin's interests. And that doesn't mean in any way that our governments are trustworthy, which just makes it even easier for him.

Great post.

Heartfeltdawn

Emp_Fab said:

There are a lot of emphatic statements in this thread.. Remember that none of us know anything really.  All we can contribute are our own opinions.  I believe the Russians are both stupid that they think we might believe this rubbish but also don't actually care whether we do or don't, such is their bullishness about their global standing.

The Russians know that there is distrust of the government. The Blair team's lies over Iraq still carry a lot of weight. They also know how a lie can manifest itself: witness Obama and the birther theories. They know a certain percentage of the UK population will believe this nonsense. They know not everyone will. That's the whole idea behind disinformation: create opposing sides and let the chaos run free. 

goldtop

Heartfeltdawn said:

One element I didn't know: independent Russian media started digging when their names were released and found flight records and passport details. 

The two passports were numbered sequentially. 

Long odds on that happening. 

Not quite sequential. See here for the full info: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/14/skripal-poisoning-suspects-passport-data-shows-link-security-services/

And, as someone above's working out the costs for 'ordinary tourists', bear in mind that they flew into one UK airport and out of a different one (not cheap) and they also had booked two return flights each. Hmmm

Heartfeltdawn

goldtop said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

One element I didn't know: independent Russian media started digging when their names were released and found flight records and passport details. 

The two passports were numbered sequentially. 

Long odds on that happening. 

Not quite sequential. See here for the full info: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/14/skripal-poisoning-suspects-passport-data-shows-link-security-services/

And, as someone above's working out the costs for 'ordinary tourists', bear in mind that they flew into one UK airport and out of a different one (not cheap) and they also had booked two return flights each. Hmmm

Ah. Mark Urban used the phrase 'suspiciously sequential' in his Twitter thread so I assumed it was sequential. Happy to be corrected here and foolish of me not to check Bellingcat

https://twitter.com/MarkUrban01/status/1040904369837928448

Heartfeltdawn

@goldtop Oh my. This might be the funniest thing of the lot. 

The idea of Salisbury as a gay wonderland is fucking hilarious. It should also be pointed out that Salisbury's only gay bar closed at the start of the year. 

http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/15816425.City_s_only_gay_bar_closes_its_doors/

https://twitter.com/mjluxmoore/status/1040494102519930880

nick79

http://https//www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45541249

A restaurant is sealed off in Salisbury as 2 diners fall ill. Quite possibly just a coincidence. Then again...

Fretwired

ICBM said:

They aren't thick at all - they're openly trolling. The goal - as well as the death and intimidation of Russian dissidents overseas, and to show they can act with complete impunity - is simply to sow fear, doubt and confusion in the West. While any properly rational person can see that these two did it, and most likely on orders coming down from much higher up, there are a minority who will believe the Russian account and feed it into the general distrust of Western governments by conspiracists, which in turn has the power to influence politics. Trump's success is at least partly a result of it, whether or not the Russians directly meddled in the election.

A West which is disunited, doubting of its own governments, supporting of anti-establishment politicians, happy to break the status quo for the sake of it and apparently impotent in the face of a ruthless and decisive enemy is perfectly in Putin's interests. And that doesn't mean in any way that our governments are trustworthy, which just makes it even easier for him.

Not what some people think .. these guys have been thrown under a bus. Even the Russian state TV company has said they don't believe them. One theory is it was a rouge operation ... the TV was to dissuade others and show the west that Putin and co are back in charge.

It's not trolling ... the guys on TV looked scared.

thermionic

nick79 said:

http://https//www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45541249

A restaurant is sealed off in Salisbury as 2 diners fall ill. Quite possibly just a coincidence. Then again...

There have been several false alarms (involving premises cordoned off etc.) in Salisbury since the first incident.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

It's not trolling ... the guys on TV looked scared.

Of course they’re scared - they’re either incompetent and didn’t do their job very well, in which case they’re going to be thrown under the bus, or they’re patsies who were used as a decoy and the real culprits are still at large.

The trolling is by whoever is directing the whole thing, not them.

Emp_Fab

I suppose in terms of effective hit squads, these two are the Laurel and Hardski of the assassin world.  Don't kill either of the targets, dispose of the bottle badly, cause the death of a civilian and the near death of another and then have your photos all over the news.

I'd be looking scared too if I were them.  It's bloody cold in Siberia.

thermionic

The Guardian is reporting that witnesses said the two who fell ill were Russians. Maybe they were tourists, there to see the famous 123m high spire of the cathedral.