Yaron vs Bartlett vs Morgan vs The Stig vs Gibson R9 vs etc...

guitars4you

Hard to know how to go with this OP - Many who want to have a go at Gibson's Historic Programme talk about the actual physical features that are incorrect - As against talking about how well they play, feel, sound etc etc - So maybe eyes takes priority over hands and ears in any evaluation for some of us ?

I've sold plenty of used Historic models now for over 20 years or so - I don't personally buy into 2006 or 2016 is better/worse - Or indeed 2004 or 2014 is better or worse etc etc - There are subtle variations, but as an overview it is rare to come across a total dud as such today - Granted you may prefer one to another, but that will always be a matter of opinion, be it 2 from 2017 or a 2017 and a 2007 in an AvB test - I do feel the biggest single improvement you can make to any/many replicas is a better set of pick-ups but even that is a topic in its own right - If we can't agree on which we prefer, OX4's or Monty's etc then how can Gibson be expected to nail it  - After all there are so many variations in the build and content of original PAF's from the late 50's

I've been lucky enough to play the Green/Moore LP - Whilst it was like been a kid in Disney World when the case was first opened I would not say it was  a great guitar to play IMO for me - A few years earlier I played another 59 LP that was up for sale - Allegedly it belonged to Gary Moore, was purchased as a back up, for the Still Got The Blues Tour - He was not getting on with it - I played it for about 20 seconds, put it back in the case and said 'I can see why he is selling it' - I'm lucky that I've played a few other 57/58/59 models over the years - Not loads but a few - My eyes have probably said wow to them all but my hands, ears and budget have never been convinced

I've not played a Yaron, but played a couple of TM's, as well as getting a castration a while ago for selling one - I've played  a couple of R9 conversions by Historic Makeovers - I've played a few Tom Murphy aged models inc a few done for Yamano - In short there are many fine Gibson replicas out there - They might not nail it to the nth degree, but for £3-8K they are more than close enough for many of us, with many original 57's 58's and 59's now fetching 6 figures

A couple of very nice LP's I've played have been early 50's conversions - You still get some vintage mojo/character at an affordable price and generally an excellent playing performance as well

Hope this doesn't sound patronising, but the more funds anyone has, then the more they can play the  'hunt for perfection' game - I'm not sure what perfection is as 2 outstanding LP's will be similar but different and on that basis you can easily swap between one and the other as the mood takes you, if you own both

My personal favourite is a 57 Tom Murphy Gold Top that I've owned for over 10 years - I've played a fair few replicas that are as good and can match it, but to be honest the more talk I hear about replica R7/8/9's and the pursuit of perfection, then the more I'm unclear as to what perfection actually is - There are many fine R7/8/9's out there

guitars4you

WezV said:

I do like to understand how and why they did things back in the golden age, I don't feel tied to it for the ones I build myself

I don't get it when people care more about the plastic than playability or tone.  

I don't get it when they focus purely on wood species without considering the variability inherent in that species or giving any thought to the grain structure of an individual piece

I don't get it when they talk about PAF tone without considering how variable  those things actually are.

Agree with you about PAF's and many other valid comments in there

SimonC

When you consider the wide sonic and visual difference between just 3 we’ll known bursts, for example, Greeny, Kossoff’s, and  Bernie Marsden’s “Beast”, it’s clear that there isn’t really a definitive “Burst “ as such.
So what is it exactly that the replicas are trying to replicate?

Bridgehouse

SimonC said:

When you consider the wide sonic and visual difference between just 3 we’ll known bursts, for example, Greeny, Kossoff’s, and  Bernie Marsden’s “Beast”, it’s clear that there isn’t really a definitive “Burst “ as such.
So what is it exactly that the replicas are trying to replicate?

The contents of your bank account into their bank account...

Bridgehouse

(That’s not meant as facetious by the way - Gibson themselves are the biggest offenders - the true historic collection isn’t. It’s just another way of playing on the burst legend to make money. IMHO there is too much talent wasted making reproductions that could better make some truly stunning instruments)

clarkefan

The song Brothers In Arms was recorded apparently on a stock 1984 Les Paul.  Pickup ring colour is unknown at this time

WezV

Tbf I have nothing against those who aim for exact replicas.  I find it fascinating


Yaron’s work on replicating original plastics was fascinating and shows his attention to detail really well... but ultimately its something that adds nothing other than a point of interest.  I am well on board at this stage.  I had a similar quest for accuracy with clay dots.

The problem comes after that.  

Buyers start judging replicas on the accuracy of the plastics.  It’s no longer just a point of interest on a Yaron.  it’s a spec that is used to judge the quality of other builders making similar styles.

Then within a few years Gibson are using the increased accuracy of its plastics as a selling point, no explanation necessary as the market is asking for it... and hopefully we all realise it’s got a bit silly.




(I know there is more to a Yaron than the plastics)

scovell001

The op’s original query is pretty simple to answer just see this thread on the Bavarian makeover on the Les Paul forum https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?204982-True-Historic-59-Bavarian-Makeover enough said really - oh & that Khaya mahogany is being used in current production.

WezV

scovell001 said:

 oh & that Khaya mahogany is being used in current production.

Good.

some will tell you it always has been, I’m not fussed about that.

khaya is currently the best choice for Gibson’s production numbers.  

Given all wood has a lot of variability  many pieces of khaya (not all) will be in the same weight and stiffness range as many South American species of mahogany

Focusing on the species ignores all the factors that make an indivifual piece of wood suitable.

i have had this debate a few times on les Paul forums... I would rather have perfectly quartersawn straight grained Indian rosewood then substandard braz.    Some would rather have braz, even with noticeable defects.

Lodious

scovell001 said:

The op’s original query is pretty simple to answer just see this thread on the Bavarian makeover on the Les Paul forum https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?204982-True-Historic-59-Bavarian-Makeover enough said really - oh & that Khaya mahogany is being used in current production.

Is it me or did it look better before the makeover?

scovell001

Lodious said:

scovell001 said:

The op’s original query is pretty simple to answer just see this thread on the Bavarian makeover on the Les Paul forum https://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?204982-True-Historic-59-Bavarian-Makeover enough said really - oh & that Khaya mahogany is being used in current production.

Is it me or did it look better before the makeover?

Quote of the day there ! Fantastic 

pmg

I have an R8 which I’m very happy with. Ultimately a good guitar is a good guitar

scovell001

WezV said:

scovell001 said:

 oh & that Khaya mahogany is being used in current production.

Good.

some will tell you it always has been, I’m not fussed about that.

khaya is currently the best choice for Gibson’s production numbers.  

Given all wood has a lot of variability  many pieces of khaya (not all) will be in the same weight and stiffness range as many South American species of mahogany

Focusing on the species ignores all the factors that make an indivifual piece of wood suitable.

i have had this debate a few times on les Paul forums... I would rather have perfectly quartersawn straight grained Indian rosewood then substandard braz.    Some would rather have braz, even with noticeable defects.

Imagine if you could get some finely grained, light weight mahogany - that would make for a pretty sweet axe surely?

hotpickups

Do you guys who own these very very expensive replicas ever gig them?

WezV

scovell001 said:

WezV said:

scovell001 said:

 oh & that Khaya mahogany is being used in current production.

Good.

some will tell you it always has been, I’m not fussed about that.

khaya is currently the best choice for Gibson’s production numbers.  

Given all wood has a lot of variability  many pieces of khaya (not all) will be in the same weight and stiffness range as many South American species of mahogany

Focusing on the species ignores all the factors that make an indivifual piece of wood suitable.

i have had this debate a few times on les Paul forums... I would rather have perfectly quartersawn straight grained Indian rosewood then substandard braz.    Some would rather have braz, even with noticeable defects.

Imagine if you could get some finely grained, light weight mahogany - that would make for a pretty sweet axe surely?

Thankfully I had had at least 4 large scores of reclaimed old stock mahogany in the last 16 years of guitar building.   And yes, it does.  

I have also used modern khaya, and that can too.

p90fool

@WezV I totally agree about points of interest, I'm even glad that some people research this stuff down to microscopic level - it adds to the knowledge base and is historically fascinating, just like industrial architecture or old motorcycles can be. 

I'm just not sure I need those details down the New Inn on Saturday.

Electric guitars are for getting laid, no more, no less - and a discussion about the composition of post war bakelite derivatives will not get you there. 

Ever.

WezV

gotta wis that.

But i am bored so put together a wood comparison.   If you look at averages, Khaya is heavier and harder than Honduran, but comparable on stiffness.    That's as far as most people get and they rule out khaya instantly.

 Averages are very hit and miss with wood.  its a natural product.  I once started a whole build thread on having the right wood (old stock honduran ) in the wrong sizes.  In it I detail a 50% variance in weight between planks of the same dimensions from the same source
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/55672/build-thread-pancake-body-les-paul-deluxe/p1

For the below I have tried to show how much cross over there is between species if you just allow a +/- 20% variance from the average, which i think is very conservative given the example in the thread above. 








.....



I don;t dispute Gibson had access to amazing wood in the 50's by the way.  Stocks were simply better and more consistent.    Any modern guitar builder, including those making replicas, has to work a lot harder to get the same kind of wood.

Danielsguitars

They still used African mahogany but people keep banging on about honduran this braz that, the bean counters just bought wood simple as that,  clive brown refinished a 56 that was African mahogany and that can't be the only one

Cocobolo has been found on some 50's ones apparently which is very possible,  i care more about seasoned wood at a reasonable weight

They weren't all featherlight either

WezV

customkits said:

They still used African mahogany but people keep banging on about honduran this braz that, the bean counters just bought wood simple as that,  clive brown refinished a 56 that was African mahogany and that can't be the only one

Cocobolo has been found on some 50's ones apparently which is very possible,  i care more about seasoned wood at a reasonable weight

They weren't all featherlight either

Exactly.   I think all the woods I listed have been reported on 50’s Gibson’s.  Some verified, some not.  

There is no magic combo.... just sensible choices they made in the 50’s and slightly altered sensible choices to achieve the same thing now 

Danielsguitars

i got asked about braz boards today so i put them straight,  I had one sent me which was merely ok, nothing special whereas i have some fantastic amazon madagascan and old cocobolo, when they're aged you can't tell what it is

The head teacher for violin making at merton college was asked by kew gardens if he can identify species he said you need the leaf and bark,  just looking at the wood is not good enough to say for definite