Yaron vs Bartlett vs Morgan vs The Stig vs Gibson R9 vs etc...

brooom

Personally the best Les Pauls for me at the moment are made by Navigator, Crews, G'Seven and Fullertone. Although I'm expecting to test out a Ryder LP quite soon.

I've owned several Gibson custom shops, throughout the years and some old Gibsons as well.

But I feel I'm preaching to the choir here, which is actually good, means I get to buy more of these amazing guitars.

TA22GT

To sum up. You can have a replica built with the correct woods, glue, parts etc. and perhaps have a great guitar.

Or you can buy an Indonesian copy of your favourite guitar and just be blown away by how good it is. The stars and the glue align and you just happen to have a great guitar.
 
It's difficult to justify your "replica"  when you are holding a great guitar.

I'm being argumentative because I am in both camps.  I own both.

A great guitar is just that, regardless of how much it cost, what it says on the headstock, and where it was made.

I have played two high end replica's that were just good joinery and not good instruments.

IvisonGuitars

WezV said:

customkits said:

They still used African mahogany but people keep banging on about honduran this braz that, the bean counters just bought wood simple as that,  clive brown refinished a 56 that was African mahogany and that can't be the only one

Cocobolo has been found on some 50's ones apparently which is very possible,  i care more about seasoned wood at a reasonable weight

They weren't all featherlight either

Exactly.   I think all the woods I listed have been reported on 50’s Gibson’s.  Some verified, some not.  

There is no magic combo.... just sensible choices they made in the 50’s and slightly altered sensible choices to achieve the same thing now 

Wis for both of you. I was reading the epic Yaron thread the other day and in it he mentions that Bharat Kandahar (aka OTPG) took some samples of wood taken from 50’s Les Pauls he’d repaired over the years to Kew Gardens lab for analysis and it wasn’t Honduran Mahogany at all but African Khaya. Apparently it also tallies with a sales ledger that Gibson bought a huge stock of African Mahogany in the mid 50’s too. 

Danielsguitars

yes spot on they were importing more african mahogany than anything else back then

i also have some lovely old African mahogany and found honduran more hit and miss weight wise,  over here anyway,  i met a guy that had a saw mill in Africa and he was looking to pack up a good few years ago 

WezV

I do have a 50’s LP here at the mo and from the bits of wood I can see I would bet on Honduran for this one.

Weight is okay, but not super light.

this kinda relates to a conversation I was having with Marc at mojo.  I have ordered 3 staples from him and I mentioned I would be able to compare against an original. He mentioned he had tweaked the wind for better matching wit other Pickups and it may not sound the same.  It never occurred to me for one second they would sound the same.... what are the chances that Marc’s reference staples are the same as my one vintage example?  Very slim

the same applies to any PAF tone.  The winders reference point will almost always be different to the players.... more so if they are both basing it on real PAF’s.


anyway... very shortly I will be able to compare 50’s wood and Pickups with a khaya/sycamore body, Honduran/Indian neck and mojo staple p-90 set.  Then there will be a khaya/Honduran body with Honduran/ebony neck and mojo staple/staple combo... I also have a laminated Honduran with Indian board that may get the staple/staple combo for a while.


fun times at WV headquarters

TA22GT

miserneil said:

WezV said:

customkits said:

They still used African mahogany but people keep banging on about honduran this braz that, the bean counters just bought wood simple as that,  clive brown refinished a 56 that was African mahogany and that can't be the only one

Cocobolo has been found on some 50's ones apparently which is very possible,  i care more about seasoned wood at a reasonable weight

They weren't all featherlight either

Exactly.   I think all the woods I listed have been reported on 50’s Gibson’s.  Some verified, some not.  

There is no magic combo.... just sensible choices they made in the 50’s and slightly altered sensible choices to achieve the same thing now 

Wis for both of you. I was reading the epic Yaron thread the other day and in it he mentions that Bharat Kandahar (aka OTPG) took some samples of wood taken from 50’s Les Pauls he’d repaired over the years to Kew Gardens lab for analysis and it wasn’t Honduran Mahogany at all but African Khaya. Apparently it also tallies with a sales ledger that Gibson bought a huge stock of African Mahogany in the mid 50’s too. 

Sorry. Double post..

TA22GT

miserneil said:

WezV said:

customkits said:

They still used African mahogany but people keep banging on about honduran this braz that, the bean counters just bought wood simple as that,  clive brown refinished a 56 that was African mahogany and that can't be the only one

Cocobolo has been found on some 50's ones apparently which is very possible,  i care more about seasoned wood at a reasonable weight

They weren't all featherlight either

Exactly.   I think all the woods I listed have been reported on 50’s Gibson’s.  Some verified, some not.  

There is no magic combo.... just sensible choices they made in the 50’s and slightly altered sensible choices to achieve the same thing now 

Wis for both of you. I was reading the epic Yaron thread the other day and in it he mentions that Bharat Kandahar (aka OTPG) took some samples of wood taken from 50’s Les Pauls he’d repaired over the years to Kew Gardens lab for analysis and it wasn’t Honduran Mahogany at all but African Khaya. Apparently it also tallies with a sales ledger that Gibson bought a huge stock of African Mahogany in the mid 50’s too. 

You almost got the name right but if BK voiced that I would argue that it is true.
He has access to carbon dating and metallurgy analysis and he is capable of building anything that can sit with the best out there.
He is not in awe in the way that we are. Gibson just did what they did at the time and there was no secret ingredient.

TA22GT

miserneil said:

WezV said:

customkits said:

They still used African mahogany but people keep banging on about honduran this braz that, the bean counters just bought wood simple as that,  clive brown refinished a 56 that was African mahogany and that can't be the only one

Cocobolo has been found on some 50's ones apparently which is very possible,  i care more about seasoned wood at a reasonable weight

They weren't all featherlight either

Exactly.   I think all the woods I listed have been reported on 50’s Gibson’s.  Some verified, some not.  

There is no magic combo.... just sensible choices they made in the 50’s and slightly altered sensible choices to achieve the same thing now 

Wis for both of you. I was reading the epic Yaron thread the other day and in it he mentions that Bharat Kandahar (aka OTPG) took some samples of wood taken from 50’s Les Pauls he’d repaired over the years to Kew Gardens lab for analysis and it wasn’t Honduran Mahogany at all but African Khaya. Apparently it also tallies with a sales ledger that Gibson bought a huge stock of African Mahogany in the mid 50’s too. 

I would vouch for that as being true. You nearly got the name right but regardless, he has access to carbon dating,a close relative,  metallurgy analysis from NASA, a close relative, and the obsessiveness to put it all together and create something that can sit with the best. He totally amazes me with his knowledge and his ability. Yet, he doesn't see what all the fuss is  about. I think he can see through it all. 
It boils down to a great instrument being just that,  a great instrument.

TA22GT

miserneil said:

WezV said:

customkits said:

They still used African mahogany but people keep banging on about honduran this braz that, the bean counters just bought wood simple as that,  clive brown refinished a 56 that was African mahogany and that can't be the only one

Cocobolo has been found on some 50's ones apparently which is very possible,  i care more about seasoned wood at a reasonable weight

They weren't all featherlight either

Exactly.   I think all the woods I listed have been reported on 50’s Gibson’s.  Some verified, some not.  

There is no magic combo.... just sensible choices they made in the 50’s and slightly altered sensible choices to achieve the same thing now 

Wis for both of you. I was reading the epic Yaron thread the other day and in it he mentions that Bharat Kandahar (aka OTPG) took some samples of wood taken from 50’s Les Pauls he’d repaired over the years to Kew Gardens lab for analysis and it wasn’t Honduran Mahogany at all but African Khaya. Apparently it also tallies with a sales ledger that Gibson bought a huge stock of African Mahogany in the mid 50’s too. 

You almost got the name right but if BK voiced that I would argue that it is true.
He has access to carbon dating and metallurgy analysis and he is capable of building anything that can sit with the best out there.
He is not in awe in the way that we are. Gibson just did what they did at the time and there was no secret ingredient.

Danielsguitars

All i do is compare to real ones i get access too, it's my only benchmark

Alot of the old tones we hear on records are played through god knows what amp then recorded etc, it's all subjective with pafs so i stick with one maker now and don't chase around anymore, I've done back to backs and it's splitting hairs imo

TA22GT

Sorry guys. Something went wrong with the posting.

@customkits ;  that is the only way to base our own views on, our own experience.

IvisonGuitars

TA22GT said:

Sorry guys. Something went wrong with the posting.

@customkits ;  that is the only way to base our own views on, our own experience.

You almost got one of those posts right too!

What did I get wrong? The species of wood? Not being arsey, just interested and not wishing to spread mid-information

Danielsguitars

TA22GT said:

@customkits ;  that is the only way to base our own views on, our own experience.

Yes but alot of people are basing tone on just recordings

TA22GT

miserneil said:

TA22GT said:

Sorry guys. Something went wrong with the posting.

@customkits ;  that is the only way to base our own views on, our own experience.

You almost got one of those posts right too!

What did I get wrong? The species of wood? Not being arsey, just interested and not wishing to spread mid-information

Sorry, it was my posting that went wrong , not yours. My post didn't post so I wrote another.

You are not spreading mis-information! You just got BK's name wrong! Not important and perhaps wise!

Danielsguitars

i don't care about carbon analysis or any of the other stuff that goes with it

You need the leaf and bark to identify the actual species,  that's what got told to kew gardens from the head at merton college who does know a bit about wood

None of this really matters apart from is it good, i like vintage tones so that's what i try and get close to

I like limba as a guitar wood,  sounds great to me

TA22GT

customkits said:

i don't care about carbon analysis or any of the other stuff that goes with it

You need the leaf and bark to identify the actual species,  that's what got told to kew gardens from the head at merton college who does know a bit about wood

None of this really matters apart from is it good, i like vintage tones so that's what i try and get close to

I like limba as a guitar wood,  sounds great to me

"You need the leaf and bark to identify the actual species,  that's what got told to kew gardens from the head at merton college who does know a bit about wood"

Exactly. That's basics for those in the know.

I exclude myself. I just play the things.

Danielsguitars

too much over analysing if you ask me

It should play sound look and feel how you want,  that's all that matters

TA22GT

customkits said:

too much over analysing if you ask me

It should play sound look and feel how you want,  that's all that matters

I agree. Totally.

A great guitar is a great guitar regardless. It doesn't matter if it was made 60 years ago or this afternoon.

ellwood

I was in the market for a Morgan or a Stig, and had actually lined up two Stigs to try. I already have a True Historic R7. Then I got my Ryders. I know they aren't replicas in the sense that they have the logo I chose not to have the board binding over the nibs. Out of about 20 guitars the second Ryder is the one I play most. It has an incredible feel and articulation - and was a fraction of the cost of the other builders.

But the best Les Paul I've played to date remains my TH R7. I know they pricing is the steep side of steep, and I am not bothered about all the blather of correct plastics etc. etc. etc. I truly don't care. I just know it's an absolutely fantastic example of what the Gibson Custom shop can do - and is an incredible instrument. 

As has been said - a great guitar is a great guitar. And between the Ryders and the R7 I am pretty happy.

Ossyrocks

hotpickups said:

Do you guys who own these very very expensive replicas ever gig them?

I do.