The wide neck guitar criminal!

octatonic

underdog;203785" said:

Also worth noting that we are not saying "you've cut the nut wrong, I do it like this" we are saying look at the evidence available to you, evidence that has no relation with anyone on this site, methods that have been proven by everyone from the guy making everything by hand in his shed to multi national companies. He's not being asked to listen to us, he's being asked to listen to the rest of the world. 

Good point.

Of all the disputable issues in the sphere of guitar production the one thing that really doesn't vary much is how to cut a nut.

meltedbuzzbox

funstuie said:

I have a Kay/Satellite made in Japan "Les Paul" which is a piece of shit. It's the worst guitar ever made. I am willing to send it for free to anyone who thinks they can make a good guitar out of it for a beginner. 

I'd have a go at that :-)

frankus

octatonic said:

1. That won't happen unless we chose to use a single point of contact with him- i.e. a spokesperson.

The nature of a forum goes against this.

Yes, so you're kinda saying it's the wrong medium, you spoke to him he came here. It's not working out, have a drink with him and a get a sense of what's really going on. this place is distorting him.

2. I'm sure you do know the agenda here. 

People are trying to show him that what he is doing is technically incorrect and morally wrong.

No, that's the shaming message - it's the futile agend. If you want success find a wording that works for everyone.. and leave morals out of it.

It isn't about  beating him up or making ourselves feel good.

You can't speak for everyone.

It is about trying, in some small way, to do some good- to appeal to his good nature to stop selling these botched guitars as a professional product until he is able to learn the skills to be able to produce a professional product.

You want to help him make better guitars?

3. Actually my wife is extremely reasonable about things. I've never had an irrational argument with her- we've had a difference of opinion about things, sure.

I didn't say your wife was unreasonable. If you've never had an irrational argument with her I imagine you've never told her she's morally wrong.

xSkarloey

Nothing wrong with being 'leftfield', but some of the stuff I've seen done to those guitars seem to be in a different fucking stadium. 

frankus

octatonic said:

underdog;203785" said:

Also worth noting that we are not saying "you've cut the nut wrong, I do it like this" we are saying look at the evidence available to you, evidence that has no relation with anyone on this site, methods that have been proven by everyone from the guy making everything by hand in his shed to multi national companies. He's not being asked to listen to us, he's being asked to listen to the rest of the world. 

Good point.

Of all the disputable issues in the sphere of guitar production the one thing that really doesn't vary much is how to cut a nut.

Not a good point. Jehovah's witnesses aren't telling you not to buy your kids birthday present, all their saying is read the good word of the lord and isn't this jehovah's witness a good singer?

Of course there are less flattering posts on youtube and if the Jehovah's witnesses were being balanced they'd present them too.

frankus

Skarloey said:

Nothing wrong with being 'leftfield', but some of the stuff I've seen done to those guitars seem to be in a different fucking stadium. 

Yep, I'm not disputing it's different.
If I saw a left handed version I'd be curious - hell I've tried enough conventional stuff.
I'd probably worry about resale.

But that's from the perspective of me being a buyer, who's really coming from that point.

I can't even tell if the disgruntled buyers on here started that way or the values of this place have coerced them. Confabulation if you like.

I don't like the veneer of rationalism people are applying to this, because it's not being handled rationally... some people are doggedly clinging to dogma as if that justifies the awkward and confused fuck-up of a witch hunt this thread has become.

RobDavies

I think the problem here is that Mr Philips doesn't want to accept criticism - no matter how constructive it may be.

When I first started making cables, I made plenty of mistakes.   I was more than happy to bow to the superior knowledge of Sporky, ICBM etc when it came to electrical shizzle - because quite clearly, they know their stuff.

As a result, I now have hundreds of happy customers and my product is extremely good.

In life, there will always be someone who knows more about something than you.  Learn from them and be a better person for it.

octatonic

frankus said:

octatonic said:

1. That won't happen unless we chose to use a single point of contact with him- i.e. a spokesperson.

The nature of a forum goes against this.

Yes, so you're kinda saying it's the wrong medium, you spoke to him he came here. It's not working out, have a drink with him and a get a sense of what's really going on. this place is distorting him.

2. I'm sure you do know the agenda here. 

People are trying to show him that what he is doing is technically incorrect and morally wrong.

No, that's the shaming message - it's the futile agend. If you want success find a wording that works for everyone.. and leave morals out of it.

It isn't about  beating him up or making ourselves feel good.

You can't speak for everyone.

It is about trying, in some small way, to do some good- to appeal to his good nature to stop selling these botched guitars as a professional product until he is able to learn the skills to be able to produce a professional product.

You want to help him make better guitars?

3. Actually my wife is extremely reasonable about things. I've never had an irrational argument with her- we've had a difference of opinion about things, sure.

I didn't say your wife was unreasonable. If you've never had an irrational argument with her I imagine you've never told her she's morally wrong.

1. No I'm not saying that. I'm saying it is a medium by which we are communicating with him, nothing more.

You're the one who has decided it is not optimal.

2. I don't think it is shaming at all- you've added that dimension to the discussion, not us.

There is a moral dimension to it.

Charging people for something that is substandard and passing it off as 'professional work' is immoral.

I'm not speaking for everyone- I've observed what people have said and made a comment to that.

Honestly, yes, I'm happy to help him to make better guitars. As are other people.

3. No- you don't know that- you're fishing.

FWIW I have said that she has done something that is morally wrong in the past- but I'm not going into the details of that as it is personal. Suffice to say she was upset by this but did later admit that I had a point.

Frank- your posts here are actually the greatest impediment to Mark coming around.

I believe that your objections to the way we are going about this will be interpreted as tacit approval of his methods.

I'd like you to speak to his skill as a guitar repairer/modifier, leaving aside the way in which we are going about that.

Willing to go on the record?

frankus

RobDavies said:

I think the problem here is that Mr Philips doesn't want to accept criticism - no matter how constructive it may be.

When I first started making cables, I made plenty of mistakes.   I was more than happy to bow to the superior knowledge of Sporky, ICBM etc when it came to electrical shizzle - because quite clearly, they know their stuff.

As a result, I now have hundreds of happy customers and my product is extremely good.

In life, there will always be someone who knows more about something than you.  Learn from them and be a better person for it.

I think you guys (who I respect) are deluding yourself as to the constructiveness of the criticism.

When it's mingled amongst a lot of very negative comments, any hint of negativity will be more apparent.

The reason you bowed to superior wisdom is because you had time and space to recognise it's superiority.

When ICBM turned up talking about different pot tapers it took a while for people to warm to his wisdom, he undoubtedly is a smart guy it quickly became apparent - but not straight away.

I think this guy is being crowded and I'd not expect to see the best of someone in such an adverse situation.

octatonic

frankus said:

RobDavies said:

I think the problem here is that Mr Philips doesn't want to accept criticism - no matter how constructive it may be.

When I first started making cables, I made plenty of mistakes.   I was more than happy to bow to the superior knowledge of Sporky, ICBM etc when it came to electrical shizzle - because quite clearly, they know their stuff.

As a result, I now have hundreds of happy customers and my product is extremely good.

In life, there will always be someone who knows more about something than you.  Learn from them and be a better person for it.

I think you guys (who I respect) are deluding yourself as to the constructiveness of the criticism.

When it's mingled amongst a lot of very negative comments, any hint of negativity will be more apparent.

The reason you bowed to superior wisdom is because you had time and space to recognise it's superiority.

When ICBM turned up talking about different pot tapers it took a while for people to warm to his wisdom, he undoubtedly is a smart guy it quickly became apparent - but not straight away.

I think this guy is being crowded and I'd not expect to see the best of someone in such an adverse situation.

I agree with this.

I don't expect him to be publicly admit he's doing the wrong thing or make any public confession.

I hope he reflects on the overwhelming evidence against him and then seeks out someone who can help him and then accepts that help.

chrisj1602

He was invited to come on here, it was optional. He chose to, and I'm sure he had a read of the other thread first.  He's called everyone nerds and pricks rather than take anything constructive from the 9 pages here or 20+ from the other thread. He's been pretty rude and borderline abusive to people via eBay too.

There is a positive though.  Online reviews are a big part of shopping for people these days, so I hope that someone types Phillips Cleartone Conversions/Guitars into Google before buying in future, because the people of this forum have created top ranking search results, potentially saving some unlucky novice the pain of buying and trying to play one of his "renovated" monstrosities.

PolarityMan

To put things a little bit in perspective it's not like he hides anything in the pictures. 

Now I agree the guitars are fugly monstrosities but it's not in the same league as stuff like gooping cheap pedals and selling them at huge markup in nicer enclosure's and stuff like that.  

Even beginners should really be able to identify that something is off when there are 7 tuners on a 6 string guitar or massive great holes in the body from badly fitted pickups. 

I wonder if people would feel differently if instead of presenting himself with somewhat over-hyped sales patter in his ebay auctions he instead presented himself as learning about guitar building and trying new things as a hobby using the sales to fund more projects? I suspect peole would feel more positively towards him but the end result for his customers would be the same. This certainly raises questions about the motive of the thread.

As Frankus points out I suspect many people have joined in to try and get an admission of "guilt" and Chris even hints obliquely at damaging  his business. This guy isn't a company, he doesn't have PR departments or legal teams to fight libel suits etc. So before participating in attempting to destroy his business I would suggest at least being honest about your motivations. 

Course maybe everyone in this thread has already done that and has already passed judgement in which case more power to ya all.

frankus

octatonic said:

1. No I'm not saying that. I'm saying it is a medium by which we are communicating with him, nothing more.

You're the one who has decided it is not optimal.

NOW WHO'S BEING DELUSIONAL seriously James it's me, I'm not very good at speaking out when I might be mistaken... this is not working, it's too confused.. the goal might be good but the implementation should be abandoned for a better one.

2. I don't think it is shaming at all- you've added that dimension to the discussion, not us.

I understand shaming behaviour, I didn't create that dimension, I simply observed it. If you're looking to avoid conflict to communicate effectively with mdphillips you'd be better served by taking on the advice I'm giving, if that's a struggle - then you've more in common with mdphillips than you think - you should recognise that and use that to find commonality first.

Honestly, yes, I'm happy to help him to make better guitars. As are other people.

Brilliant, I'd love to help my teenage son be a better student, it involves patience, guile and more patience.

We can want something for someone, but realistically that's as good as it gets, even torture will only get you so far.

3. No- you don't know that- you're fishing.

FWIW I have said that she has done something that is morally wrong in the past- but I'm not going into the details of that as it is personal. Suffice to say she was upset by this but did later admit that I had a point.

Okay, in that situation I'd get a punch in the face... because "morality" is subjective. People play pissing competitions with their superior sense of morality. People manipulate others with their sense of morality. It's a blocker to effective communication and I'm assuming you really want to communicate effectively with mdphillips and that's why you invited him here.

Frank- your posts here are actually the greatest impediment to Mark coming around.

I believe that your objections to the way we are going about this will be interpreted as tacit approval of his methods.

I can understand you'd be afraid my approach is interfering, but that's not possible because there's no coherence here for me to attempt to disrupt.

So fearing I'm the impediment is really just electing me as scapegoat for how this thread is failing. It'll soothe the ego bt nothing will have been gained.

I'd like you to speak to his skill as a guitar repairer/modifier, leaving aside the way in which we are going about that.

Willing to go on the record?

I don't understand what that means, please clarify.

octatonic

PolarityMan said:

Even beginners should really be able to identify that something is off when there are 7 tuners on a 6 string guitar or massive great holes in the body from badly fitted pickups. 

Actually no, not really.

Beginners often don't know what they are looking at.

You and I know what these guitars are about because we have experience.

Newbies simply don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision.

PolarityMan said:

I wonder if people would feel differently if instead of presenting himself with somewhat over-hyped sales patter in his ebay auctions he instead presented himself as learning about guitar building and trying new things as a hobby using the sales to fund more projects? I suspect peole would feel more positively towards him but the end result for his customers would be the same. This certainly raises questions about the motive of the thread.

I reckon it would make a big difference- but that just supports the motivations of people here.

It isn't so much what he is doing- although that is problematic in itself, but rather his unwillingness to acknowledge that the lack of skill in his work that is the big problem.

If he acknowledges that he is bad at this stuff then he can change it, work at it, get better/

The longer he sticks to his guns the longer the problem persists, nothing changes.

This is why Frankus' relativist argument falls down imho.

OilCityPickups

Lexie1 said:

funstuie said:

I have a Kay/Satellite made in Japan "Les Paul" which is a piece of shit. It's the worst guitar ever made. I am willing to send it for free to anyone who thinks they can make a good guitar out of it for a beginner. 

I don't mind taking that on if you like (assuming it has a straight ... ie not laterally warped neck) and do a photo log.
At the end I suggest we auction it in benefit of forum funds.
If nothing else this thread (and it's cousin) will have given the board some dosh.

Lexie1

Couldn't agree more Ash. Have a wisdom Sah,

PolarityMan

octatonic said:

Newbies simply don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision.

It's kinda like those cars with half the body work a different colour from the rest. I know nothing about cars but there's no way I'd buy one of those no matter how well priced it was or what mechanic told me he'd "fixed it up".

I'd say that many of the flaws are so glaring that people buying in spite of them should really be prepared to shoulder some of the responsibility.

imalone

chrisj1602 said:

He was invited to come on here, it was optional. He chose to, and I'm sure he had a read of the other thread first.  He's called everyone nerds and pricks rather than take anything constructive from the 9 pages here or 20+ from the other thread. He's been pretty rude and borderline abusive to people via eBay too.

There is a positive though.  Online reviews are a big part of shopping for people these days, so I hope that someone types Phillips Cleartone Conversions/Guitars into Google before buying in future, because the people of this forum have created top ranking search results, potentially saving some unlucky novice the pain of buying and trying to play one of his "renovated" monstrosities.

Indeed, this is my first post in this thread and already I've been lumped in under:
"it seems like people only come to this site to find people or things they think can be used to make themselves sound clever?"
and
"what a bunch of blinkered nerds".
I'm actually here to talk about music and guitars and learn interesting things.
On the subject of nuts. When I got my first acoustic (an Ibanez, not particularly bad), it had massively high action. I eventually decided it shouldn't be like that and took it along to a luthier (whose name I wont drag into this discussion, but I don't think is on the internet anyway, certainly not on this forum). When it came back, bridge and nut had been adjusted, truss rod set up, it plays much better now. The original quote was £20, but the guy reduced the price from even that (which is already pretty good), I think on the basis it had taken him a while to get around to it. You cannot tell to look at it, a professional doesn't hack pieces out of things when a careful touch is needed.
Edit: actually I think £20 was the final price, which is hard to beat for a pro setup.

AlanP

frankus said:

I'd like you to speak to his skill as a guitar repairer/modifier, leaving aside the way in which we are going about that.

Willing to go on the record?

I don't understand what that means, please clarify.

I think he is asking you to say whether you think Mark does a good job, or not...

frankus

chrisj1602 said:

There is a positive though.  Online reviews are a big part of shopping for people these days, so I hope that someone types Phillips Cleartone Conversions/Guitars into Google before buying in future, because the people of this forum have created top ranking search results, potentially saving some unlucky novice the pain of buying and trying to play one of his "renovated" monstrosities.

Sounds like a legal reason to move this to speakers corner.