The wide neck guitar criminal!

randomhandclaps

frankus said:

Clearly other people are painfully (and I use that purposefully) aware of his lack of knowledge. It's distressing some people - I don't think that's condusive to communication.

Seriously, it doesn't always hurt when I laugh.

funstuie

I have a Kay/Satellite made in Japan "Les Paul" which is a piece of shit. It's the worst guitar ever made. I am willing to send it for free to anyone who thinks they can make a good guitar out of it for a beginner. 

frankus

randomhandclaps said:

Frank whilst I could understand your viewpoint the crippling hole blown in it by Mark himself in the complete lack of explanation or justification of his methods.

Look, we're nothing more than munchkins to the guy - our sense of self importance is based on our own eco system... it doesn't go outside the walls.. the experience and knowledge we appreciate here has been earned over time and here we are shaming a guy for not buying into it in one day... in order for us to shame him some more!

He's no reason to accept this authority without evidence.

Our assertion that these people are an authority is not evidence.

With the best will in the world noone is going to change so profoundly based on such poor evidence.

The rest is cancelled out by that.

octatonic

frankus said:

This guy is a business man, he doesn't seem to be doing badly in selling these guitars, put yourself in his shoes... he's selling guitars, he's getting good feedback, he suddenly gets criticism from a group of self-appointed do-gooders from one forum (imagine your studio came under attack from a Jehova's Witness Forum - how seriously would you take it?).

But it is misrepresentation- actually we could get trading standards involved if we wanted.

He promises a professional setup but nothing he does is even close to being professional.

He's a terrible amateur who is pretending to be an expert.

How is this any different to the people you see on Rogue Traders- you know the type- they pressure old folk into buying a service (like tree felling or guttering) and then do a bad job for real money.

This is the problem- Mark charges real money for an instrument that is essentially unplayable.

He charges more than the standard rate for these instruments so he obviously 'values' his contribution in terms of setup.

That is worked into the price.

Charging for that is morally indefensible.

All of this is IMHO but you'll not find many who disagree with that I reckon.

frankus

octatonic said:

frankus said:

This guy is a business man, he doesn't seem to be doing badly in selling these guitars, put yourself in his shoes... he's selling guitars, he's getting good feedback, he suddenly gets criticism from a group of self-appointed do-gooders from one forum (imagine your studio came under attack from a Jehova's Witness Forum - how seriously would you take it?).

But it is misrepresentation- actually we could get trading standards involved if we wanted.

He promises a professional setup but nothing he does is even close to being professional.

He's a terrible amateur who is pretending to be an expert.

How is this any different to the people you see on Rogue Traders- you know the type- they pressure old folk into buying a service (like tree felling or guttering) and then do a bad job for real money.

This is the problem- Mark charges real money for an instrument that is essentially unplayable.

He charges more than the standard rate for these instruments so he obviously 'values' his contribution in terms of setup.

That is worked into the price.

Charging for that is morally indefensible.

All of this is IMHO but you'll not find many who disagree with that I reckon.

Then get the law involved and see what case you have IF YOU FEEL THAT STRONGLY.

If you suspect you might not have a case or don't have the time to pursue it, then inviting him here is just lazy vigilantism

octatonic

frankus said:

randomhandclaps said:

Frank whilst I could understand your viewpoint the crippling hole blown in it by Mark himself in the complete lack of explanation or justification of his methods.

Look, we're nothing more than munchkins to the guy - our sense of self importance is based on our own eco system... it doesn't go outside the walls.. the experience and knowledge we appreciate here has been earned over time and here we are shaming a guy for not buying into it in one day... in order for us to shame him some more!

He's no reason to accept this authority without evidence.

Our assertion that these people are an authority is not evidence.

With the best will in the world noone is going to change so profoundly based on such poor evidence.

The rest is cancelled out by that.

Argument from authority is when people say 'I am an expert therefore you must believe me' without offering any other supportive evidence.

No-one is doing that.

We are all giving a lot of detail as to the technical reasons about why, for example, his nut cutting his wrong.

We do have experts here but the core argument people are presenting is demonstrably not based on argument from authority.

randomhandclaps

 

frankus said:

Look, we're nothing more than munchkins to the guy - our sense of self importance is based on our own eco system...

The rest is cancelled out by that.

So every other issued raised is cancelled out by your perception of others sense of self importance.  Steady on Frank I think you are close to creating a paradox.

chrisj1602

Many people piss about and cut corners with their own guitars.  I used superglue to fix a chipped nut on a CS Gibson, I did a pretty scruffy job of a coil-split on another.  The thing is, they were mine, I did it for me. This guy is not doing it for his own use, but to make money, therefore he should be doing it properly and if he's not, he shouldn't be allowed to do it at all.  What if he was tinkering with cars? People would probably die.

frankus

I don't think you've really tried to see it from his perspective - you're too intent on being right and keeping the moral high ground.

As such I can completely understand why you guys are not getting the pay-off you're so clearly seeking.

If your motivation was to fix the source of guitars so that more people taking up guitar love their first guitar (which appears to the covert motive for this game) then there are countless ways for a creative mind TO DO THAT BETTER!

You've called this guy to the headmasters office and it's a free-for-all - it's a fucking useless way to communicate and get someone to change their mind. It's SO STUPID it is beneath you. So either you're blinded by your emotions or you're happy to just punish the guy. I really cannot see how you hope to communicate effectively using this medium.

This thread is a total failure in every regard except for a few people content to futilely demean a guy. Sure there are good intentions amongst the noise - they WON'T BE HEARD - put yourself in his place.

If you genuinely want anything positive from this interaction, ask the mods to shut up people having a bitch, AND back it up on the self-righteousness.

The intent of your communication CAN ONLY BE the response you get. You've not got the response you wanted ... so are you being entirely honest with yourself about the intent of the communication... if you're genuinely mistaken ADAPT!! for the sake of the good you're trying to do.

blueskunk

Fuck me, u guys have some time on your hands to intellectualise this shit

octatonic

frankus said:

I don't think you've really tried to see it from his perspective - you're too intent on being right and keeping the moral high ground.

As such I can completely understand why you guys are not getting the pay-off you're so clearly seeking.

If your motivation was to fix the source of guitars so that more people taking up guitar love their first guitar (which appears to the covert motive for this game) then there are countless ways for a creative mind TO DO THAT BETTER!

You've called this guy to the headmasters office and it's a free-for-all - it's a fucking useless way to communicate and get someone to change their mind. It's SO STUPID it is beneath you. So either you're blinded by your emotions or you're happy to just punish the guy. I really cannot see how you hope to communicate effectively using this medium.

This thread is a total failure in every regard except for a few people to futilely demean a guy. Sure there are good intentions amongst the noise - they WON'T BE HEARD - put yourself in his place.

If you genuinely want anything positive from this interaction, ask the mods to shut up people having a bitch, AND back it up on the self-righteousness.

The intent of your communication CAN ONLY BE the response you get. You've not got the response you wanted ... so are you being entirely honest with yourself about the intent of the communication... if you're genuinely mistaken ADAPT!! for the sake of the good you're trying to do.

Again, I don't really agree.

I didn't necessarily think we'd get through to the guy, but certainly we've presented the information and it is up to him to listen or not.

I don't think watering down the content of the thread is going to have any different response- he's so committed to his method and unwilling to acknowledge there is any problem, even though a lot of very knowledgeable people have informed him and there are previous customers who have sided with this view too.

I do think that he knows how shoddy his work is and perhaps after a bit of time for it to sink in and after a bit of reflection then he might seek out some people who made the very kind offer to show him where he has gone wrong. 

Maybe.

I'll ask you Frank- specifically what do you think people should say?

How would you get him to realise what he is doing is technically flawed and morally wrong?

blueskunk

Funstuie dude u should have fooked the nicey nicey bollocks when u received the crap guitar.

Lexie1

funstuie said:

I have a Kay/Satellite made in Japan "Les Paul" which is a piece of shit. It's the worst guitar ever made. I am willing to send it for free to anyone who thinks they can make a good guitar out of it for a beginner. 

Now surely this has to be a way forwards? Would it perhaps be an idea for one of our respected guys to take this on and if possible, do an in depth photographic log of what work has been carried out and perhaps far more importantly, how that work was done? I would offer myself, but my wiring and soldering abilities are woeful in the extreme.

I should have thought that this would serve a great many uses, particularly to those of us whom are still learning this craft?

Just a thought.

frankus

randomhandclaps said:

 

frankus said:

Look, we're nothing more than munchkins to the guy - our sense of self importance is based on our own eco system...

The rest is cancelled out by that.

So every other issued raised is cancelled out by your perception of others sense of self importance.  Steady on Frank I think you are close to creating a paradox.

You can't fault this guys attitude towards this forum given the very bad first impression he's got. It'd explain all his subsequent attitudes to the melange of criticism and advice...

There are rescuers (wanting to save this guy from himself), there are vigilantes (wanting to rescue the "victims" of his guitars), there are victims (wanting redress for their disappointment), there are armchair experts, there are cynics (just loving the churn this is creating)... there are many many agendas and all of them involve shaming this guy, he'd be an idiot to tolerate it.

The rescuers might want to believe he'd see their wisdom and be redeemed, the vigilantes might want to confess he's a fraud, the victims might want an apology, the experts might want recognition from their peers, the cynics might find another victim - that is a fuck load of commitments to foist onto a complete stranger.

He has every reason to think very little of this place.

RocknRollDave

What's your agenda here @frankus?

frankus

octatonic said:

I'll ask you Frank- specifically what do you think people should say?

How would you get him to realise what he is doing is technically flawed and morally wrong?

First off. I've outlined the medium chosen to impart this message is too chaotic and filled with other agendas.

Second I can't tell you what to say because I don't know that I fully understand your agenda from what's been written here.
(if I can't understand your motivations and I've got no stake in the drama, how do you think it'll work for the person being encouraged to be the victim?)

Thirdly being technically and morally right doesn't work in arguments with your wife does it?

funstuie

blueskunk said:

Funstuie dude u should have fooked the nicey nicey bollocks when u received the crap guitar.

Perhaps, But hindsight is a great thing. 

underdog

octatonic;203737" said:

frankus said:



randomhandclaps said:

Frank whilst I could understand your viewpoint the crippling hole blown in it by Mark himself in the complete lack of explanation or justification of his methods.

Look, we're nothing more than munchkins to the guy - our sense of self importance is based on our own eco system... it doesn't go outside the walls.. the experience and knowledge we appreciate here has been earned over time and here we are shaming a guy for not buying into it in one day... in order for us to shame him some more!

He's no reason to accept this authority without evidence.Our assertion that these people are an authority is not evidence.With the best will in the world noone is going to change so profoundly based on such poor evidence.



The rest is cancelled out by that.
















Argument from authority is when people say 'I am an expert therefore you must believe me' without offering any other supportive evidence.No-one is doing that.We are all giving a lot of detail as to the technical reasons about why, for example, his nut cutting his wrong.We do have experts here but the core argument people are presenting is demonstrably not based on argument from authority.

Also worth noting that we are not saying "you've cut the nut wrong, I do it like this" we are saying look at the evidence available to you, evidence that has no relation with anyone on this site, methods that have been proven by everyone from the guy making everything by hand in his shed to multi national companies. He's not being asked to listen to us, he's being asked to listen to the rest of the world.

octatonic

frankus said:

octatonic said:

I'll ask you Frank- specifically what do you think people should say?

How would you get him to realise what he is doing is technically flawed and morally wrong?

First off. I've outlined the medium chosen to impart this message is too chaotic and filled with other agendas.

Second I can't tell you what to say because I don't know that I fully understand your agenda from what's been written here.
(if I can't understand your motivations and I've got no stake in the drama, how do you think it'll work for the person being encouraged to be the victim?)

Thirdly being technically and morally right doesn't work in arguments with your wife does it?

1. That won't happen unless we chose to use a single point of contact with him- i.e. a spokesperson.

The nature of a forum goes against this.

2. I'm sure you do know the agenda here. 

People are trying to show him that what he is doing is technically incorrect and morally wrong.

It isn't about  beating him up or making ourselves feel good.

It is about trying, in some small way, to do some good- to appeal to his good nature to stop selling these botched guitars as a professional product until he is able to learn the skills to be able to produce a professional product.

3. Actually my wife is extremely reasonable about things. I've never had an irrational argument with her- we've had a difference of opinion about things, sure.

frankus

RocknRollDave said:

What's your agenda here @frankus?

Honestly? Okay. We both know that in being honest - I'm setting myself up for ridicule or cross examination, if not by you then someone else... but seeing as it's you, Dave okay.

After the discussion the other day with @Jetfire in the thread about productivity, I was pleased I'd managed to rephrase all the negative statements I'd like to have made into positive statements - what I wanted. In part that was helped greatly by Jetfire as I've met him and he's a balanced guy, it was easier to think better of him, that the issue was a flaw in communication, so rather than focussing on what I didn't want I'd focus on what I did want and it was easier to think creatively as a result.

I applied it to the motivation we'd been discussing and figure out what I enjoyed, what was productive, what was unproductive about this forum - where did I experience happiness and where did I lose out due to unhappiness and as such I identified that the only time this place nears normal human interaction is in contentious threads.

WHICH, I place myself in the middle of. So I'm examining my role which so far appears to involve enjoying expressing my authentic self. There are elements of recognition involved Oct is a hero as are Ash and ICBM, you're an exemplar of balance... hence the response. I think these explanations get mistaken for martyrdom as people try to put them down or exploit them... but the reality is by the time other people understand them my understanding has shifted.

Is that answer complete and authentic enough for you?