Anderton's Vertex video

RaymondLin

digitalscream said:

OK, popping in briefly...

I'm fully on-board with the Vertex haters - the guy's proven himself to be a bit of a dick time and time again.

Trying to put myself in Lee's position for a moment, and expanding on the post from @Paul7926 - these are the options:

1 - Say "Who cares? This is business, let the market decide."

2 - Ditch the product line, thus effectively giving power over his inventory to The Internet Hate Machine.

3 - Opt for a somewhere-in-between choice, whereby he continues to do business with Mason, but unlike most suppliers who'd get a few chances to get it right, he only has to fuck it up once and he gets ditched.

Honestly, if I based all of my opinions on what People On The Internet said, my life would be a total mess. I can understand why he's done it this way - it's effectively "Never mind what everyone else says, I'm going to make my own mind up", which is totally understandable given that his direct personal experience with the guy has been positive thus far.

Given that the stakes are minimal for Lee (and for Andertons in the wider view), giving him a chance doesn't really cost him anything financially. The number of people who've actually been affected by the Vertex scams are really quite small, and while the number of people who're angry about it is probably a couple of orders of magnitude bigger...even if all those people boycott Andertons it's still probably little more than a rounding error in their balance sheet.

People on forums might feel that this is a huge issue, but step outside the echo chamber for a bit and you might see that this is such a piddling small controversy that it barely deserves the name. Yes, there are moral issues at hand, and as I said...I'm offended by this guy's behaviour too. I'm not about to let that colour my opinion of a guy who's always acted in a far more mature and sensible manner than forums and the YouTube comments section have demanded.

If the sales are so small then why put his own reputation on the line for "40 odd" pedals?

fields5069

I must be imagining things - didn't Lee already respond a while back about this guy, giving some spiel about a second chance? My mind must be playing tricks, or maybe it was another manufacturer?

BBBlues

Lee is gonna tie himself in knots. Someone somewhere will dig something out on him knowing more than he claims to have done in that response.

BBBlues

How much revenue are these pedals actually making. Not worth it.

Lee, give the bung back to Vertex. Drop the pedal line. Get on with being a decent business again.

shuikit

So, they researched as far as seeing that Vertex were stocked by other reputable music stores but failed to see any of the controversies??  If you start to type 'Vertex pedals' into Google then 'Vertex pedals controversy' is the 3rd suggested search after 'Vertex pedals' and 'Vertex pedals uk'.

RaymondLin

shuikit said:

So, they researched as far as seeing that Vertex were stocked by other reputable music stores but failed to see any of the controversies??  If you start to type 'Vertex pedals' into Google then 'Vertex pedals controversy' is the 3rd suggested search after 'Vertex pedals' and 'Vertex pedals uk'.

It’s an excuse use by 5 year olds.  “But mum, John did it too!” 

digitalscream

RaymondLin said:

If the sales are so small then why put his own reputation on the line for "40 odd" pedals?

Perhaps because cancelling a contract "because people on the Internet said so" is likely to cause headaches?

UnclePsychosis

That response from Andertons is fucking weak.

Lee saying "he's been a nice guy to me" is quite impressively deluded given that Mason literally lies to Lee's face in that video.

He's been caught lying and cheating so many times now that he's gone way beyond second chances.

1. Rackdoctor scam
2. BBE wahs scam 
3. Belden cable scam
4.  Claiming to have an EE degree scam
5. Once caught, claiming that the reason he didn't get that EE degree is because the university stopped doing it (they didn't)
6. Inventing a magical boost / volume pedal that defies the laws of physics scam
7. Dumble drive / SSS pedal not being remotely what he claimed scam
8. Continuing to drop Landau's name as an endorsee / partner despite being explicitly told not to
9. Completely distorting his relationship with Bonamassa for publicity, trying to rip JB off for work that wasn't asked for, to the extent where JB had to publically and noisily tell him to cease and desist.

I like Andertons, the team seem like nice guys, but this stinks. If Lee thinks that the "40 odd" pedals they sell is worth the public association with a serial fraud then I'm out. Ethics and morals are only worth something if you stick to them when they cost you something: clearly Lee Anderton not only thinks its OK to sell this guys stuff but also to be this guy's chum. I was prepared to give Lee the benefit of the doubt but he's just doubled down on Vertex: so whilst it may not mean much on the big balance sheet at Anderton's they won't be seeing a penny of my cash from now on.  

RaymondLin

digitalscream said:

RaymondLin said:

If the sales are so small then why put his own reputation on the line for "40 odd" pedals?

Perhaps because cancelling a contract "because people on the Internet said so" is likely to cause headaches?

Now you are moving the goal post, which is it?  Small sum or money or a lot?

octatonic

UnclePsychosis said:

That response from Andertons is fucking weak.

Lee saying "he's been a nice guy to me" is quite impressively deluded given that Mason literally lies to Lee's face in that video.

He's been caught lying and cheating so many times now that he's gone way beyond second chances.

1. Rackdoctor scam
2. BBE wahs scam 
3. Belden cable scam
4.  Claiming to have an EE degree scam
5. Once caught, claiming that the reason he didn't get that EE degree is because the university stopped doing it (they didn't)
6. Inventing a magical boost / volume pedal that defies the laws of physics scam
7. Dumble drive / SSS pedal not being remotely what he claimed scam
8. Continuing to drop Landau's name as an endorsee / partner despite being explicitly told not to
9. Completely distorting his relationship with Bonamassa for publicity, trying to rip JB off for work that wasn't asked for, to the extent where JB had to publically and noisily tell him to cease and desist.

I like Andertons, the team seem like nice guys, but this stinks. If Lee thinks that the "40 odd" pedals they sell is worth the public association with a serial fraud then I'm out. Ethics and morals are only worth something if you stick to them when they cost you something: clearly Lee Anderton not only thinks its OK to sell this guys stuff but also to be this guy's chum. I was prepared to give Lee the benefit of the doubt but he's just doubled down on Vertex: so whilst it may not mean much on the big balance sheet at Anderton's they won't be seeing a penny of my cash from now on.  

Agree 100%.
I buy from Andertons from time to time (had a pedal from them last week) and will continue to do so, but although it is plausible that he didn't know about Mason before he started distributing his products, once he is aware of the totality of his conduct it is approaching indefensible to continue to do so IMHO.

digitalscream

RaymondLin said:

digitalscream said:

RaymondLin said:

If the sales are so small then why put his own reputation on the line for "40 odd" pedals?

Perhaps because cancelling a contract "because people on the Internet said so" is likely to cause headaches?

Now you are moving the goal post, which is it?  Small sum or money or a lot?

Nonsense. Unless you can point to a part of that statement which states any amount of money, big or small...?

darthed1981

UnclePsychosis said:

I was prepared to give Lee the benefit of the doubt but he's just doubled down on Vertex: so whilst it may not mean much on the big balance sheet at Anderton's they won't be seeing a penny of my cash from now on.  

To be fair, in his reply Lee does say he is fine if people want to boycott Andertons.

He probably isn't fine with it, but he has to be measured in reaction to the boycott.  Knee-jerk reactions to internet fury are unwise.

RaymondLin

UnclePsychosis said:

That response from Andertons is fucking weak.

Lee saying "he's been a nice guy to me" is quite impressively deluded given that Mason literally lies to Lee's face in that video.

He's been caught lying and cheating so many times now that he's gone way beyond second chances.

1. Rackdoctor scam
2. BBE wahs scam 
3. Belden cable scam
4.  Claiming to have an EE degree scam
5. Once caught, claiming that the reason he didn't get that EE degree is because the university stopped doing it (they didn't)
6. Inventing a magical boost / volume pedal that defies the laws of physics scam
7. Dumble drive / SSS pedal not being remotely what he claimed scam
8. Continuing to drop Landau's name as an endorsee / partner despite being explicitly told not to
9. Completely distorting his relationship with Bonamassa for publicity, trying to rip JB off for work that wasn't asked for, to the extent where JB had to publically and noisily tell him to cease and desist.

I like Andertons, the team seem like nice guys, but this stinks. If Lee thinks that the "40 odd" pedals they sell is worth the public association with a serial fraud then I'm out. Ethics and morals are only worth something if you stick to them when they cost you something: clearly Lee Anderton not only thinks its OK to sell this guys stuff but also to be this guy's chum. I was prepared to give Lee the benefit of the doubt but he's just doubled down on Vertex: so whilst it may not mean much on the big balance sheet at Anderton's they won't be seeing a penny of my cash from now on.  

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

Fool me dozen times, let me bend over and pick up the soap with crap rains from the sky over my face whilst the world is watching.

octatonic

I just searched Andertons for Devi Ever effects...

Paul7926

RaymondLin said:

digitalscream said:

RaymondLin said:

If the sales are so small then why put his own reputation on the line for "40 odd" pedals?

Perhaps because cancelling a contract "because people on the Internet said so" is likely to cause headaches?

Now you are moving the goal post, which is it?  Small sum or money or a lot?

I don't think that is what Mr Scream means.  It's not that cancelling the contract would be expensive it's the principle and precedent he would set by doing it.  If he pulls the product in response to internet backlash then how many other products might he have to pull for the same reason and how many down votes means he has to drop something.

I think he has taken the only real way out.  Forget the 'second chance' spin for a minute.  Lee has said that he will give full refunds to all customers if this turns out to be a scam.  He has also said, in a round about way, that it's not big money for him either way so if you wish to boycott that product line you are welcome to.  

Yes he may lose some other business because he gave the guy a platform to appear on but as a businessman he really can't allow the internet to dictate what he does and does not sell.

I'm sure in private he is wishing he had never done it but he has so he has some difficult decisions to take.

EDIT:

I'm also not really sure how much business he will lose.  I fully understand that people can spend their hard earned cash where they want and if they wish to boycott Andertons completely that is their choice.  The truth however is that there are several other well known companies also selling those pedals.  So if you are going to Boycott Andertons you really have to boycott those others as well.  

Maxx77

can't understand this
" Is he the 1st guy to do this? No. Will he be the last guy to do this? I doubt it. "

BBBlues

Maxx77 said:

can't understand this
" Is he the 1st guy to do this? No. Will he be the last guy to do this? I doubt it. "

Agreed. It's one thing to tweak a tube screamer circuit. It's another to literally buy a pre-existing product, such as BBE wah's, and goop them! Has anyone else done that?

digitalscream

Maxx77 said:

can't understand this
" Is he the 1st guy to do this? No. Will he be the last guy to do this? I doubt it. "

Translated:

"People have done stupid stuff, people do stupid stuff and people will almost certainly do stupid stuff in the future"

RaymondLin

Paul7926 said:

RaymondLin said:

digitalscream said:

RaymondLin said:

If the sales are so small then why put his own reputation on the line for "40 odd" pedals?

Perhaps because cancelling a contract "because people on the Internet said so" is likely to cause headaches?

Now you are moving the goal post, which is it?  Small sum or money or a lot?

I don't think that is what Mr Scream means.  It's not that cancelling the contract would be expensive it's the principle and precedent he would set by doing it.  If he pulls the product in response to internet backlash then how many other products might he have to pull for the same reason and how many down votes means he has to drop something.

I think he has taken the only real way out.  Forget the 'second chance' spin for a minute.  Lee has said that he will give full refunds to all customers if this turns out to be a scam.  He has also said, in a round about way, that it's not big money for him either way so if you wish to boycott that product line you are welcome to.  

Yes he may lose some other business because he gave the guy a platform to appear on but as a businessman he really can't allow the internet to dictate what he does and does not sell.

I'm sure in private he is wishing he had never done it but he has so he has some difficult decisions to take.

No he can’t let the internet dictate what he can or cannot sell.

His personal integrity can and as it stands, he has none, at the cost of said principles.

my problem isn’t the clone pedals, hell, not even a lie but he constant and consistency of it and even in this very video.  

Fretwired

Lee's made his position clear. Not much else to say really. Up to the market whether or not they're so upset they'll shop elsewhere. I doubt this will dent Anderton's sales or reputation.