Anderton's Vertex video

Anacharsis · November 2018

digitalscream said:

OK, popping in briefly...

I'm fully on-board with the Vertex haters - the guy's proven himself to be a bit of a dick time and time again.

Trying to put myself in Lee's position for a moment, and expanding on the post from @Paul7926 - these are the options:

1 - Say "Who cares? This is business, let the market decide."

2 - Ditch the product line, thus effectively giving power over his inventory to The Internet Hate Machine.

3 - Opt for a somewhere-in-between choice, whereby he continues to do business with Mason, but unlike most suppliers who'd get a few chances to get it right, he only has to fuck it up once and he gets ditched.

Honestly, if I based all of my opinions on what People On The Internet said, my life would be a total mess. I can understand why he's done it this way - it's effectively "Never mind what everyone else says, I'm going to make my own mind up", which is totally understandable given that his direct personal experience with the guy has been positive thus far.

Given that the stakes are minimal for Lee (and for Andertons in the wider view), giving him a chance doesn't really cost him anything financially. The number of people who've actually been affected by the Vertex scams are really quite small, and while the number of people who're angry about it is probably a couple of orders of magnitude bigger...even if all those people boycott Andertons it's still probably little more than a rounding error in their balance sheet.

People on forums might feel that this is a huge issue, but step outside the echo chamber for a bit and you might see that this is such a piddling small controversy that it barely deserves the name. Yes, there are moral issues at hand, and as I said...I'm offended by this guy's behaviour too. I'm not about to let that colour my opinion of a guy who's always acted in a far more mature and sensible manner than forums and the YouTube comments section have demanded.

I think your option 2 is not accurate. Ditch the product line, noting that when the facts dictate it, you'll do the right thing. The hate machine can (and often is) wrong. It isn't this time. That's easy to figure out.

Anacharsis · November 2018

Adam_MD said:

People are way too upset about this just don't buy the stuff if you don't want to deal with a dodgy pedal company passing off someone elses circuit as their own. Add him to the list along with lovepedal, jhs etc and move on.

That reflects a lack of knowledge of what really happened. He did much, much more than that.

Anacharsis · November 2018

octatonic said:

I just searched Andertons for Devi Ever effects...

And I'm sure the new line from Freekish Blues will soon make its world premiere at Anderton's.

Anacharsis · November 2018

Paul7926 said:

RaymondLin said:

digitalscream said:

RaymondLin said:

If the sales are so small then why put his own reputation on the line for "40 odd" pedals?

Perhaps because cancelling a contract "because people on the Internet said so" is likely to cause headaches?

Now you are moving the goal post, which is it? Small sum or money or a lot?

I don't think that is what Mr Scream means. It's not that cancelling the contract would be expensive it's the principle and precedent he would set by doing it. If he pulls the product in response to internet backlash then how many other products might he have to pull for the same reason and how many down votes means he has to drop something.

I think he has taken the only real way out. Forget the 'second chance' spin for a minute. Lee has said that he will give full refunds to all customers if this turns out to be a scam. He has also said, in a round about way, that it's not big money for him either way so if you wish to boycott that product line you are welcome to.

Yes he may lose some other business because he gave the guy a platform to appear on but as a businessman he really can't allow the internet to dictate what he does and does not sell.

I'm sure in private he is wishing he had never done it but he has so he has some difficult decisions to take.

EDIT:

I'm also not really sure how much business he will lose. I fully understand that people can spend their hard earned cash where they want and if they wish to boycott Andertons completely that is their choice. The truth however is that there are several other well known companies also selling those pedals. So if you are going to Boycott Andertons you really have to boycott those others as well.

True. And doing so is easy. Turns out there are some ethical dealers out there.

One thing to note is that there are two sides to the perception coin. I think the notion that pulling this video would mean automatically buckling to any backlash is inaccurate. We're talking about an exposed scam artist here, not a lightly modded Tube Screamer. Moreover, Lee's false equivalence essentially impugns the whole industry. And by leaving this video up, he's choosing sides - Mason over Mike Piera (Analog.Man - whom Mason explicitly insults) and all the other reputable builders.

There's no easy way out, but he put himself in it. Now he's choosing what *seems* like the easiest way out, apparently giving no thought whatsoever to the right thing to do.

fftc · November 2018

Some folk really do have a great line in being outraged!

So the Vertex guy is a dick. OK, don't buy his pedals. Did he order bombs to be dropped on a hospital? No, so a sense of perspective might be in order.
Anyone who might boycott Andertons for anything other than a Vertex pedal purchase was probably just looking for an excuse anyway.

kennedydream1980 · November 2018

fftc said:

Some folk really do have a great line in being outraged!

So the Vertex guy is a dick. OK, don't buy his pedals. Did he order bombs to be dropped on a hospital? No, so a sense of perspective might be in order.
Anyone who might boycott Andertons for anything other than a Vertex pedal purchase was probably just looking for an excuse anyway.

Tell that to all the people he ripped off!!

Adam_MD · November 2018

Anacharsis said:

Adam_MD said:

People are way too upset about this just don't buy the stuff if you don't want to deal with a dodgy pedal company passing off someone elses circuit as their own. Add him to the list along with lovepedal, jhs etc and move on.

That reflects a lack of knowledge of what really happened. He did much, much more than that.

I know what he did I just add him to the list of all the other dishonest pedal companies and don’t buy their stuff.

digitalscream · November 2018

Anacharsis said:

I think your option 2 is not accurate. Ditch the product line, noting that when the facts dictate it, you'll do the right thing. The hate machine can (and often is) wrong. It isn't this time. That's easy to figure out.

Ah, but "the right thing" is very much subject to personal bias.

In any case...my point was that if he ditched the product line at this point, he'd be setting a precedent for the often-wrong hate machine to bring up every time he stocks a product that folk don't like.

Think ahead a step or two here. He's left the door open for removing Vertex from the lineup without setting that precedent - it's beyond doubt (in my mind at least) that Mason will do something stupid like he has done in the past, at which point Lee will ditch his products and refund anyone who's shelled out on them, and then nobody's lost anything.

fftc said:

Anyone who might boycott Andertons for anything other than a Vertex pedal purchase was probably just looking for an excuse anyway.

Pretty much this. Either that or they'll just continue to quietly buy from Andertons after the virtue-signalling anyway. I've noted a few people in this thread who've said such a thing several times in the past, so either their boycotts don't last long or they're piling boycotts on each other

Anacharsis · November 2018

digitalscream said:

Anacharsis said:

I think your option 2 is not accurate. Ditch the product line, noting that when the facts dictate it, you'll do the right thing. The hate machine can (and often is) wrong. It isn't this time. That's easy to figure out.

Ah, but "the right thing" is very much subject to personal bias.

In any case...my point was that if he ditched the product line at this point, he'd be setting a precedent for the often-wrong hate machine to bring up every time he stocks a product that folk don't like.

Think ahead a step or two here. He's left the door open for removing Vertex from the lineup without setting that precedent - it's beyond doubt (in my mind at least) that Mason will do something stupid like he has done in the past, at which point Lee will ditch his products and refund anyone who's shelled out on them, and then nobody's lost anything.

I think you're oversimplifying, but I think we're talking past each other at this point. There is no precedent if Lee simply goes by the facts - whether they come from angry comments or his own research.

I'd like to believe your scenario, but I think it's too rosy. I think Lee is setting himself up to dig in and grant a pass to almost anything - short of a BBE wah repeat - that Mason does. He's already letting lies Mason told in the video, and insults he slung at other builders, stand. We'll see who's right.

Fretwired · November 2018

Musicman20 said:

PEACH:

Product Overview
WE DO NOT ENDORSE THE VERTEX BRAND OR ANYTHING THAT THEY DO - WE'RE JUST CLEARING THE REMAINING STOCK TO GET OUR INVESTMENT BACK
OK, we all know the story around these pedals. We just want our money back and any profits made will be donated to macmillan cancer support.

WELL PLAYED PEACH!

What? They got found out so are now doing a U-turn as part of a reputation management exercise. I think Lee's post was better - it was at least honest.

digitalscream · November 2018

Anacharsis said:

We'll see who's right.

Not really any need, for me at least. I talk to him every time somebody on here decides to sling mud at him to get his perspective (mainly to work out if there's anything libellous), so I'm pretty familiar with his approach and thinking. So, with that in mind...

Anacharsis said:

I think Lee is setting himself up to dig in and grant a pass to almost anything - short of a BBE wah repeat - that Mason does.

...you're wrong.

m_c · November 2018

digitalscream said:

fftc said:

Anyone who might boycott Andertons for anything other than a Vertex pedal purchase was probably just looking for an excuse anyway.

Pretty much this. Either that or they'll just continue to quietly buy from Andertons after the virtue-signalling anyway. I've noted a few people in this thread who've said such a thing several times in the past, so either their boycotts don't last long or they're piling boycotts on each other

I'll never say I'll boycott anything, as you never know what the future holds, but certainly with Lee's response, it will make me consider other shops. Anderton's was usually the first place I'd check for guitar/music related purchases, as I liked Lee's attitude, and their videos were usually pretty good, which was something I'd like to support, however this latest response just feels like a fob off putting profits before morals.

digitalkettle · November 2018

Fretwired said:
What? They got found out so are now doing a U-turn as part of a reputation management exercise. I think Lee's post was better - it was at least honest.

I’m sure Peach had that text up before all this crap...I saw it on the Landau pedal at the very least.

NelsonP · November 2018

Not sure how Lee (or any of the other dealers who stock Vertex) can win here.

- If they do nothing then they will be accused of ignorance / not vetting their suppliers properly.
- If they cancel their contract with Vertex then they will be accused of being disingenuous (as Peach were above).
- If they take a middle ground (i.e. give the fella a chance) then the people that have been ripped off in the past won't allow it.

It's a no win situation. I think Lee has trodden a reasonable path under the circumstances. I will continue to buy stuff from Andertons.

TGP are up to 15 pages on this topic and still no easy answers:
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/mason-marangella-vertex-visits-andertons-uk.1992038/page-15

Anacharsis · November 2018

digitalscream said:

Anacharsis said:

We'll see who's right.

Not really any need, for me at least. I talk to him every time somebody on here decides to sling mud at him to get his perspective (mainly to work out if there's anything libellous), so I'm pretty familiar with his approach and thinking. So, with that in mind...

Anacharsis said:

I think Lee is setting himself up to dig in and grant a pass to almost anything - short of a BBE wah repeat - that Mason does.

...you're wrong.

Well he already got lied to by Mason in the video itself. So if his statement is accurate, he'll be dropping Vertex immediately, since he's already been betrayed. Excuses to get around that speak to exactly the kind of digging in that I expect.

simonk · November 2018

kennedydream1980 said:

fftc said:

Some folk really do have a great line in being outraged!

So the Vertex guy is a dick. OK, don't buy his pedals. Did he order bombs to be dropped on a hospital? No, so a sense of perspective might be in order.
Anyone who might boycott Andertons for anything other than a Vertex pedal purchase was probably just looking for an excuse anyway.

Tell that to all the people he ripped off!!

Well I guess you can include me in that as I bought a NOS Axis Wah from Peach before the shit hit the fan. There’s no rancor or axe to grind here though as I was suitably recompensed by Vertex... case closed for me, and I have more pressing things to fret about. There’s an awful lot of hot air being blown in this thread IMO.

Well said @fftc ;

Fretwired · November 2018

digitalkettle said:

Fretwired said:
What? They got found out so are now doing a U-turn as part of a reputation management exercise. I think Lee's post was better - it was at least honest.

I’m sure Peach had that text up before all this crap...I saw it on the Landau pedal at the very least.

I didn't mean this thread .. seems seriously odd to me. A quick Google uncovers a Hollywood film's worth of plot in the first few pages. I'm sure suppliers do due diligence.

joeyowen · November 2018

For fuck sake though, his* ear is good. The wah sounded amazing, and the SSS pedal sounds great.

Damnit.

Won't be buying, but damnit they sound good.

*his/the original designers. It more means his opinion of tone, not creation of it.