Why are so many modern guitar amps so middy and muddy?

ICBM

Without naming names particularly, since it's not unique to this manufacturer... I've got an amp here for repair which is totally muddy-sounding - just no top-end at all, and almost all mids. I can almost get a usable sound out of it with the treble up full, the mid on zero and the bass just above halfway - any less than that and it lacks bottom end as well - but it's still not quite there. I've also got another one from the same company which is a completely different design and technology but sounds just as bad - and the problem is clearly in the power amp, and intentional - even plugging directly into the FX loop return has the same characteristic blanket-over-the-amp tone. (A power amp input should sound neutral, unless deliberately made not to be.)

They just sound like the guitar is being played with the tone control most of the way down all the time. I've come across this with recent amps from at least two other manufacturers, one new but apparently well-thought-of, the other a classic brand whose amps never sounded like this in the past, in fact they had a reputation for brightness...

Why?! I don't even like overly bright and shrill sounds, but these amps are more or less unusable to me - they have no top-end, clarity or sparkle at all, whether clean or overdriven. I have played through a *huge* number of different amps in the course of repair work over the last thirty years, and this is a new thing for me - in the past, more or less all amps had a usable range of tone from duller and muddier than I would ever want to brighter and thinner than I would ever want, and are capable of a standard, 'neutral' (or much as a guitar amp through guitar speakers can ever be) evenly-balanced tone somewhere in the middle, even if the controls weren't all at 12 o'clock.

So what has changed? It can't be that I'm just getting old and losing my top-end hearing, since I can still hear the *right* sound from many other amps, my hi-fi, and any other source, and I can still easily tell when a tweeter is working and when it isn't! Has the idea that 'the guitar is a midrange instrument' been taken too literally?

Genuinely puzzled, and I'd be interested to know whether anyone else feels the same way.

Jimbro66

Are these amps that are aimed specifically at the high-gain market?

Winny_Pooh

Victory or Blackstar judging from your previous posts?

Maynehead

Do YouTube demos of these amps exhibit the same sonic peculiarities? If so, we could give you a second opinion, just to confirm it’s not just you.

digitalscream

Because it's the trend for YouTube demos - a good sound for live or studio work has a certain amount of fizz, but that doesn't necessarily sound good in isolation. Ergo, most YouTube demo channels use an unrealistic low-pass. Therefore people think that's what sounds good, and manufacturers give them what they want.

Basically, it's the tail wagging the dog.

This, I think, is why Victory amps sound so (relatively) dark. They're designed for demos, not necessarily live work.

Or, to be more charitable...you might be onto something with the "tone control" comment. More and more people are using digital wireless gear without the "cable emulation" bit, which means a lot more high-end comes through from the guitar. Perhaps it's a design choice to cope with that?

Keefy

Names must be named!

*goes off to look for pitchfork and flaming torch*

ICBM

Jimbro66 said:

Are these amps that are aimed specifically at the high-gain market?

No.

Winny_Pooh said:

Victory or Blackstar judging from your previous posts?

Yes, and Fender (Bassbreaker).

It's not really manufacturer-specific though, so I didn't really want to name names - more a question as to why this sort of sound is apparently acceptable to anyone.

Maynehead said:

Do YouTube demos of these amps exhibit the same sonic peculiarities? If so, we could give you a second opinion, just to confirm it’s not just you.

Yes.

More importantly, most other amps don't. Although there have been some in the past, most notably the Cornford Harlequin/Hurricane. I know there's a common factor with Victory here...

digitalscream said:

Or, to be more charitable...you might be onto something with the "tone control" comment. More and more people are using digital wireless gear without the "cable emulation" bit, which means a lot more high-end comes through from the guitar. Perhaps it's a design choice to cope with that?

No, it's *way* more than could be explained by that.

The YouTube idea is more plausible.

Keefy

Great thread, this - it allows me to feel smug about my own small amp collection!

prlgmnr

So they sound crap until you've put a 'transparent' overdrive in front of them, thus ensuring additional sales for related business partners?

WiresDreamDisasters

I've taken a fair amount of stick for how bright my tone is, usually from other guitarists. Then you put my live shows up next to theirs, and you can actually hear my playing... can't hear theirs coz it gets dwarfenated by the bass guitar.

thecolourbox

prlgmnr said:

So they sound crap until you've put a 'transparent' overdrive in front of them, thus ensuring additional sales for related business partners?

If I was in this game that's exactly the kind of thing I'd be doing to be honest - some sort of built in requirement for other products, though with a conscious effort not to be like the Boss Tone Capsules things 

jellybelly

Having recently gotten hold of a Bassbreaker 15, I’m inclined to agree that it’s a dark, smooth amp - I NEVER use bright switches normally but it’s almost mandatory with this amp. Sound best with my Jaguar and I assume telecasters will work well with it too. Bit too dark for my particularly dark Jazzmaster and 335...

I think it sounds great at home volumes in isolation. I have no idea about a gig though - I think it might lack any cut and I’d end up cranking the treble to get it to poke through. All that said, I really like the bass response - very focused and percussive. 

@ICBM which bassbreaker was it you were working on? If it’s the 15, how easy a fix do you think a noisy fx loop would be.?

ICBM

jellybelly said:

Having recently gotten hold of a Bassbreaker 15, I’m inclined to agree that it’s a dark, smooth amp - I NEVER use bright switches normally but it’s almost mandatory with this amp. Sound best with my Jaguar and I assume telecasters will work well with it too. Bit too dark for my particularly dark Jazzmaster and 335...

I think it sounds great at home volumes in isolation. I have no idea about a gig though - I think it might lack any cut and I’d end up cranking the treble to get it to poke through. All that said, I really like the bass response - very focused and percussive. 

@ICBM which bassbreaker was it you were working on? If it’s the 15, how easy a fix do you think a noisy fx loop would be.?

It was the 007 - two different ones. I don't know how easy to fix or mod it would be - Fender won't supply schematics any more, and I had to troubleshoot them by trial and error and a bit of intuition.

It's not the bass response that's the problem - I like bass - it's the total lack of top-end, which is not the same thing at all... personally, I thought it sounded awful even in isolation and I can't imagine it being any use at a gig.

Voxman

I've not played a Victory or a Bassbreaker, but I've played loads of Blackstars and I really, really dislike them - I think they are my least favourite amp manufacturer. Very middy/bassy, no character and they just don't feel nice to play.  And that includes their 'loud as valve' digital ID60TVP's etc that were hugely disappointing after all the hype when they came out.  Needless to say Blackstar do loads of sales so are clearly well thought of by others, but they are decidedly not for me. 

monquixote

I was quite impressed with the honesty of the recent Andertons small amp roundup where Danish Pete said that the Black Star HT and Bassbreaker would be rubbish gigging amps compared to the AC 15.

p90fool

I totally agree, I seem to like a bright guitar tone compared to other players I know, but when I play along with commercial recordings in almost any genre I'm usually lees bright than that.

There is a "guitar demo tone" I hear all the time on gear reviews which I've never heard on a record, it's flat, grainy and muddy and wouldn't work for any actual song ever made but is taking over YouTube. 

I might dig out a typical example later, but we all know what it sounds like.  

Barney

If found that when listening to gear demos ...they sound fine at low volume or just on their own but would never work in a live band situation ...in fact it seems the opposite is true ...the perfect example would be my mk4 Boogie with the EV speaker ...on it's own it sounds shrill and to in your face but it mixes great with a band and other instruments in a live situation ....it seems a lot of gear now is aimed at sounding good in a music shop or demo recording ...I think pedals could be included as well.....

57Deluxe

is cos when you turn their gain up you get a nice gain without being ice pick Zizzzzz

Seems is probably a positioning thing/marketing thing for a style of amp but then at the detriment of a good overall design.

Just get a Super Reverb and wack all the Zizzzz-inducers you want in front of it and it will still sound fantastic!

Philtre

Victory V40.

How to remove the dark blanket?

1. Treble at 3 o'clock, Bass at 9 o'clock

2. Voice II on

3. Master volume at 2 o'clock

4. Both power tubes on

5. Pedals in front (with a buffer) with treble up

Or....

1. Get a HRD

markr76

My old badcat hotcat 30r was a dark amp. I always struggled to get the treble/brightness where I wanted it. Had loads of low end.
Yet every gig I did, it cut through the mix very well. It was very clear in a band mix. The thing that I never got on with was o never warmed to the clean channel. Was far too toppy for my taste. The amp was very compressed also. Which was great for some things. But could never open it up.

Onpar

I recently tried a few guitars through at v40 and they sounded awful. Very difficult to evaluate a guitar's tone when played through this amp. I would have been better off through a blues junior or hrd. So many youtubers use Victory amps and I just don't get it. I had a similar experience through a v30. I can't believe I was actually thinking of 'upgrading' to Victory a while back!