Why are so many modern guitar amps so middy and muddy?

markr76

Philtre said:

markr76 said:

I actually don't mind the victory v40. It is on the dark side,  but I like a sound on the darker side anyway. I've 6L6 loaded in mine and I usually use the amp as a backup incase my main amp craps out. I take it to band practice also as its nicec and portable. I like how well it takes pedals. I'm not a fan of the on board reverb at all though.
It's good for what I use it for. I've heard better and I've heard a lot worse.

Can you hear much difference with 6L6 vs EL34s? I tried 6L6s in my V40 and it was noticeably toppier but perhaps lost some mids.

I think the 6L6's are more toppy as you'd say. I think a but more bass also. It's only marginal though. Most people reckon the el34's work better in that amp. 
I do think the v40 works better with single coils than humbuckers. But I've had no bother getting mine to cut through in a band mix. It sits in the mix nicely too. I think they work better with an open back speaker cab also.

Funkfingers

crunchman said:
I had a Blackstar HT5 for a while.  Ended up selling it.  I would say that it lacked sparkle in the top end.

Clecko said:

I had an HT5 and sold it, too. I bought one when they first came out. It was my first valve amp and I was wowed by the 'trouser flapping feel at bedroom volumes' hype. I don't recall it being that muddy, but I was only ever happy with it when I ran pedals into it. 

I owned a mk1 HT-5 mini stack. The overdrive channel was fine for working at "domestic" volume levels. The clean channel sounded bunged up at any volume level. I tried upgrading to an American loudspeaker. It did not help.

The person to whom I sold the HT-5 liked to park his ashtray on top of the head, right next to the vent. D'oh! He has since traded it in at a local guitar shop.

earwighoney

ICBM said:

jellybelly said:

Having recently gotten hold of a Bassbreaker 15, I’m inclined to agree that it’s a dark, smooth amp - I NEVER use bright switches normally but it’s almost mandatory with this amp. Sound best with my Jaguar and I assume telecasters will work well with it too. Bit too dark for my particularly dark Jazzmaster and 335...

I think it sounds great at home volumes in isolation. I have no idea about a gig though - I think it might lack any cut and I’d end up cranking the treble to get it to poke through. All that said, I really like the bass response - very focused and percussive. 

@ICBM which bassbreaker was it you were working on? If it’s the 15, how easy a fix do you think a noisy fx loop would be.?

It was the 007 - two different ones. I don't know how easy to fix or mod it would be - Fender won't supply schematics any more, and I had to troubleshoot them by trial and error and a bit of intuition.

It's not the bass response that's the problem - I like bass - it's the total lack of top-end, which is not the same thing at all... personally, I thought it sounded awful even in isolation and I can't imagine it being any use at a gig.

The Bassbreaker 007 is one of the worst sounding amps I've come across.  Fender seem to get off lightly for some of their failures.

EricTheWeary

Clecko said:

I demoed a 2nd hand Blackstar HT1 that I happened to see in a local shop at the weekend and had to try three different guitars until I found one that was bright enough to counteract the *incredibly* muddy sound that I simply couldn't dial out of the amp.

The experience was similar to what @ICBM is describing - there wasn't too much bass or mid-range, just no top end or sparkle at all. I thought it was faulty!  

My experience with Blackstar sounds like that, the clean sounds in particular very dead. Long while ago now but HDs and IDs. I'm not fussy with amps but that Blackstar sound does not work for me at all.

guitartango

I am down to one amp at the moment, having sold my Marshall (new amp on the way sometime soon) and it's a Fender Blues Junior (MKII). The FBJ can be very boxy as we all know, but with a mic attached or a Cab it can sound really good. You think after all these years Fender would change the design of the amp, maybe a bigger Cabinet etc. 

olafgarten

guitartango said:

I am down to one amp at the moment, having sold my Marshall (new amp on the way sometime soon) and it's a Fender Blues Junior (MKII). The FBJ can be very boxy as we all know, but with a mic attached or a Cab it can sound really good. You think after all these years Fender would change the design of the amp, maybe a bigger Cabinet etc. 

I think they are afraid of changing it too much because it sells so well. 

A lot of people seem to like the boxiness. 

guitartango

olafgarten said:

guitartango said:

I am down to one amp at the moment, having sold my Marshall (new amp on the way sometime soon) and it's a Fender Blues Junior (MKII). The FBJ can be very boxy as we all know, but with a mic attached or a Cab it can sound really good. You think after all these years Fender would change the design of the amp, maybe a bigger Cabinet etc. 

I think they are afraid of changing it too much because it sells so well. 

A lot of people seem to like the boxiness. 

I think you are right, i tend to stick the amp on a chair or amp stand. It's not a bad amp, maybe a little overpriced

tekbow

Nothing of value to add to this thread, but enjoying it and finding it informative.

I've not played many of the current crop of amps, so interesting to hear about where their focus potentially lies.

jellybelly

As a result of this thread I’ve been listening to guitar tone to detect how much high end is there - a mixed bag!!

Jonny Greenwood does not struggle to cut through the mix with the big slab of dark midrange and practically no highs (in terms of early Radiohead anyway). 

Conversely Jeff Buckley is all treble. 

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

So what has changed? It can't be that I'm just getting old and losing my top-end hearing, since I can still hear the *right* sound from many other amps, my hi-fi, and any other source, and I can still easily tell when a tweeter is working and when it isn't! Has the idea that 'the guitar is a midrange instrument' been taken too literally?

Genuinely puzzled, and I'd be interested to know whether anyone else feels the same way.

One thing that has changed is the pressure on manufacturers to produce multiple channel amplifiers - capable yielding almost any sound from crystal clear clean to the filthiest extreme saturation - and all for a reasonable price. This brief is bound to result in compromises somewhere.

Mark1960

I have a theory about this that I noticed from a different angle. We recently changed bass player, and I noticed that he mostly played at least 1 octave above the open string E 4th string on a standard bass guitar, and when I asked him why, he explained that he came from a heavy rock back ground (our sound is Soul / Rock n Roll / Rhytm n Blues) and was used to playing with one guitar, which was often "shredding" at the upper end of the fretboard, and therefore needed to fill the mid gap, (This was an issue with our band cos we have two guitars, one predomantly in the mid range and one in the high, and the bass was getting lost, but when he played an octave lower the bass came through nice and clear) left by the lead guitar, and I was wondering if the amps in question were voiced in the mid range, because current guitarists were playing mostly higher up and wanted a fuller tone when doing this? Just a thought.

Modulus_Amps

olafgarten said:

guitartango said:

I am down to one amp at the moment, having sold my Marshall (new amp on the way sometime soon) and it's a Fender Blues Junior (MKII). The FBJ can be very boxy as we all know, but with a mic attached or a Cab it can sound really good. You think after all these years Fender would change the design of the amp, maybe a bigger Cabinet etc. 

I think they are afraid of changing it too much because it sells so well. 

A lot of people seem to like the small size and price. 

FTFY

IMO It is a horribly boxy amp, would be fine if you could dial the bass in and out, but you can't due to the cab.

ICBM

Modulus_Amps said:

IMO It is a horribly boxy amp, would be fine if you could dial the bass in and out, but you can't due to the cab.

Although it still doesn't sound as bad as the other ones mentioned so far!

The limited edition ones with tweed-covered pine cabinets and Jensen speakers sound a lot better, to be fair - and the Mk IV version seems to have been re-voiced a bit to help as well. But it's still a poorly-designed, quite poorly-made, very overpriced amp in my opinion, even with the upgrades.

guitartango

ICBM said:

Modulus_Amps said:

IMO It is a horribly boxy amp, would be fine if you could dial the bass in and out, but you can't due to the cab.

Although it still doesn't sound as bad as the other ones mentioned so far!

The limited edition ones with tweed-covered pine cabinets and Jensen speakers sound a lot better, to be fair - and the Mk IV version seems to have been re-voiced a bit to help as well. But it's still a poorly-designed, quite poorly-made, very overpriced amp in my opinion, even with the upgrades.

And yet Chris Rea used one on Blue guitars... must have been modded

ICBM

guitartango said:

And yet Chris Rea used one on Blue guitars... must have been modded

So what? You can mic up an amp and do almost anything you want with it in the studio. He also used to DI a Tube Screamer sometimes...!

Paul Weller used a Peavey Backstage on some of the early Jam albums. Does it sound like it?

(I like the Backstage, but I bet most people wouldn't consider it a great-sounding amp.)

p90fool

Modulus_Amps said:

IMO It is a horribly boxy amp, would be fine if you could dial the bass in and out, but you can't due to the cab.

It has its benefits - I've put an Eminence bass speaker in one to use it as a bass practice amp, now the neighbours aren't disturbed by the bass in our rehearsals because there isn't any! 

english_bob

ICBM said:

He also used to DI a Tube Screamer sometimes...!

I did that once- we were putting down guided tracks while we recorded drums and needed some guitar in people's headphones, so it wasn't intended to stay, but it did sound surprisingly good.

I don't know how much studio fairy dust there was between my Tubescreamer and my headphones though...

impmann

ICBM said:

guitartango said:

And yet Chris Rea used one on Blue guitars... must have been modded

So what? You can mic up an amp and do almost anything you want with it in the studio. He also used to DI a Tube Screamer sometimes...!

Paul Weller used a Peavey Backstage on some of the early Jam albums. Does it sound like it?

(I like the Backstage, but I bet most people wouldn't consider it a great-sounding amp.)

Can you explain to me how you can add frequency response to a recorded sound, please?

Thanks

jellybelly

impmann said:

ICBM said:

guitartango said:

And yet Chris Rea used one on Blue guitars... must have been modded

So what? You can mic up an amp and do almost anything you want with it in the studio. He also used to DI a Tube Screamer sometimes...!

Paul Weller used a Peavey Backstage on some of the early Jam albums. Does it sound like it?

(I like the Backstage, but I bet most people wouldn't consider it a great-sounding amp.)

Can you explain to me how you can add frequency response to a recorded sound, please?

Thanks

Not being an expert but wouldn’t moving close to the centre of the cone do that?? It’s something I’m semi-aware of but generally tune out when soundmen are asking where I usually place the mic...

ICBM

impmann said:

Can you explain to me how you can add frequency response to a recorded sound, please?

By using EQ... as you very well know . Desk EQ is powerful enough to bring up even a very low level of natural frequency response if you want, especially if you've done something like mic'ed the centre of the cone as jellybelly said.

There are loads of examples of recordings done with small boxy-sounding amps that sound like really big amps on the finished record. (As well as the opposite!)

Brian May recorded those 'orchestral' parts using an old transistor radio amp in a bookshelf speaker, put face down on a cushion and mic'ed from the back. You'd expect that to sound like a kazoo from what you would hear in the room.

None of this means you'd actually want that sort of sound from a normal guitar amp...