Why are so many modern guitar amps so middy and muddy?

impmann

ICBM said:

impmann said:

Can you explain to me how you can add frequency response to a recorded sound, please?

By using EQ... as you very well know . Desk EQ is powerful enough to bring up even a very low level of natural frequency response if you want, especially if you've done something like mic'ed the centre of the cone as jellybelly said.

There are loads of examples of recordings done with small boxy-sounding amps that sound like really big amps on the finished record. (As well as the opposite!)

Brian May recorded those 'orchestral' parts using an old transistor radio amp in a bookshelf speaker, put face down on a cushion and mic'ed from the back. You'd expect that to sound like a kazoo from what you would hear in the room.

None of this means you'd actually want that sort of sound from a normal guitar amp...

My point being you cannot *add* frequency response. You can boost what is there but laws of physics state you can’t add frequency response.

Differeng mic techniques will get you different sounds and yes, we have all heard the lengths Brian May went to in generating those frankly incredible sounds.

BUT a great console and a great mic combined with a talented studio engineer can only do so much. Using the BM analogy, his little Deacy amp will never do big open sounds - the gain structure plus mid jump of that amp will never sound like that, no matter how much EQ is applied post production. 

I understand the point you are making, but garbage in = garbage out... but you can roll it in glitter to a point.

stickyfiddle

jellybelly said:

As a result of this thread I’ve been listening to guitar tone to detect how much high end is there - a mixed bag!!

Jonny Greenwood does not struggle to cut through the mix with the big slab of dark midrange and practically no highs (in terms of early Radiohead anyway). 

Conversely Jeff Buckley is all treble. 

I don't buy that - using a Tele into AC30s and a Fender Eighty Five I'm betting his tone in isolation is toppy as fuck, it's just mixed really well so the highs aren't immediately noticeable. Bear in mind with 3 guitarists it's all the more important to have everyone frequencies well separated wherever possible. 

jellybelly

stickyfiddle said:

jellybelly said:

As a result of this thread I’ve been listening to guitar tone to detect how much high end is there - a mixed bag!!

Jonny Greenwood does not struggle to cut through the mix with the big slab of dark midrange and practically no highs (in terms of early Radiohead anyway). 

Conversely Jeff Buckley is all treble. 

I don't buy that - using a Tele into AC30s and a Fender Eighty Five I'm betting his tone in isolation is toppy as fuck, it's just mixed really well so the highs aren't immediately noticeable. Bear in mind with 3 guitarists it's all the more important to have everyone frequencies well separated wherever possible. 

I’d agree in principle except 
(i) his tele is loaded with lace sensors, a blue in the neck and red ‘dually’ in the bridge - the darkest, midrangiest, muddiest pickups I’ve ever played and nothing like tele pickups!
(ii) his lead tone is a Marshall shredmaster pedal - also very dark, so much so it didn’t work for me with anything but a Marshall and I ended up selling it and sticking with a RAT. 
(iii) Radiohead use the ‘normal’ channels of their  Vox amps, or non-top boost versions, which are quite neutral in tone to my ears - johnny cleans are quite balanced but definitely on the dark side - the intro to 2+2=5 is a prime example. 

Would certainly be interesting to hear those tracks in isolation - I’ve been going off a comparison with Ed’s tone, which is always much much brighter. Electioneering is a good track to compare!

ecc83

impmann said:

ICBM said:

impmann said:

Can you explain to me how you can add frequency response to a recorded sound, please?

By using EQ... as you very well know . Desk EQ is powerful enough to bring up even a very low level of natural frequency response if you want, especially if you've done something like mic'ed the centre of the cone as jellybelly said.

There are loads of examples of recordings done with small boxy-sounding amps that sound like really big amps on the finished record. (As well as the opposite!)

Brian May recorded those 'orchestral' parts using an old transistor radio amp in a bookshelf speaker, put face down on a cushion and mic'ed from the back. You'd expect that to sound like a kazoo from what you would hear in the room.

None of this means you'd actually want that sort of sound from a normal guitar amp...

My point being you cannot *add* frequency response. You can boost what is there but laws of physics state you can’t add frequency response.

Differeng mic techniques will get you different sounds and yes, we have all heard the lengths Brian May went to in generating those frankly incredible sounds.

BUT a great console and a great mic combined with a talented studio engineer can only do so much. Using the BM analogy, his little Deacy amp will never do big open sounds - the gain structure plus mid jump of that amp will never sound like that, no matter how much EQ is applied post production. 

I understand the point you are making, but garbage in = garbage out... but you can roll it in glitter to a point.

Well you CAN add extra frequencies! That is what distortion does. Then there was a big fashion some years ago for the Aphex Enhancer. This box of tricks, AFAICT, used various frequency doubling anf comprsseion techniques to ad a "sheen" to the sound.

Dave.

thatguyoverthere

To throw a new angle into this mix... I tried a Victory V40 Duchess today, and what I heard coming from the cabinet was nothing like what anyone described here. Incredible bass and treble, clear and gorgeous midrange... I was impressed and was seriously ready to lay down some cash for it.

Then I discovered it was plugged into a MASSIVE closed back Orange 4x12 cab behind the Victory cab and I hadn’t noticed (yeah, that was dumb). With the Victory 1x12 cab, I found I completely agree with the experiences described here - something super off-putting and muddy about the midrange.

So with that in mind, this amplifier should be served well with a thoughtful choice of cab/speaker. Has anyone else experienced this?

monquixote

Wow this is a perfect example of the modern amp (Blackstar) sounding really horrible and dull.

I also thought the Orange sounded shit, but I think they just aren't to my taste.

Can't go wrong with an AC30 or an HRD natch.

impmann

ecc83 said:

impmann said:

ICBM said:

impmann said:

Can you explain to me how you can add frequency response to a recorded sound, please?

By using EQ... as you very well know . Desk EQ is powerful enough to bring up even a very low level of natural frequency response if you want, especially if you've done something like mic'ed the centre of the cone as jellybelly said.

There are loads of examples of recordings done with small boxy-sounding amps that sound like really big amps on the finished record. (As well as the opposite!)

Brian May recorded those 'orchestral' parts using an old transistor radio amp in a bookshelf speaker, put face down on a cushion and mic'ed from the back. You'd expect that to sound like a kazoo from what you would hear in the room.

None of this means you'd actually want that sort of sound from a normal guitar amp...

My point being you cannot *add* frequency response. You can boost what is there but laws of physics state you can’t add frequency response.

Differeng mic techniques will get you different sounds and yes, we have all heard the lengths Brian May went to in generating those frankly incredible sounds.

BUT a great console and a great mic combined with a talented studio engineer can only do so much. Using the BM analogy, his little Deacy amp will never do big open sounds - the gain structure plus mid jump of that amp will never sound like that, no matter how much EQ is applied post production. 

I understand the point you are making, but garbage in = garbage out... but you can roll it in glitter to a point.

Well you CAN add extra frequencies! That is what distortion does. Then there was a big fashion some years ago for the Aphex Enhancer. This box of tricks, AFAICT, used various frequency doubling anf comprsseion techniques to ad a "sheen" to the sound.

Dave.

Yes, I remember the product well. Used to sell ‘em.
Point is they don’t *add* frequency, through the use of subtractive eq and boost, they enhance what is already there.

A perfect example here would be that you can run a recording from the 20s/30s through a similar process (very middle and bass light), and you can cut and boost what’s already there but you won’t make it sound like a modern full-range recording. 

There isnt a magic process you can you can put a recording through to add a frequency that wasn’t there during capture.

ICBM

Actually distortion *does* add extra frequencies that aren’t in the original recording. There is a limit to how much you can use it before it starts to sound noticeably distorted though.

For what it’s worth I’ve just replaced the cabinet on a Blues Junior with a 5E3-sized pine one - which is a couple of inches wider and very slightly shallower than the original. Big difference - the amp is now much brighter and less boxy-sounding, although to my slight surprise there’s not really any more bottom end.

olafgarten

With digital technology you can add whatever frequencies you want. It won't sound right unless you go into extreme detail but you can completely synthesise whatever you want. 

ecc83

"Actually distortion *does* add extra frequencies that aren’t in the original recording. There is a limit to how much you can use it before it starts to sound noticeably distorted though." Yes IC! IMHO that is where all the art/science/bllx IS with overdrive guitar sound.

You WANT to add those extra frequencies but when you do things can get gritty or fizzy. The infinite variations of tone that come from  overdriven stages (of whatever type) are subject the tastes of the designers and it is no small wonder peeps can never agree on the best sound!

If anyone want a benchmark? A swift varder at any power valve data sheet will give the output power in watts for almost always 10% distortion. That means your signal is 90% what you put in and 10% extra harmonics and, believe iot or not folks, 10%THD does NOT sound at all bad! 

10% THD is also IMHO a good point at which to specify a guitar amplier's power rating. It is of coures at least a hundred times too high for anything remotely hi-fi!

Dave.

professorben

Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I recall the isolated guitar tracks from Hold The Line (toto) and it was notable how fizzy and bright the tone was, even going as far as saying unpleasant in isolation, but obviously amazing in the mix. 

Could this trend in darker amps be a sop towards players being less likely to play live? Or at volume, or even with a bassist and drummer? 

Perhaps. 

Are most gear purchases made via online content now? How many people go to a music shop and wind up the wick on an amp on the sales floor? 

PolarityMan

Maybe the increase in venues and bands using good enough PA's to warrant putting guitars thorugh plays a part here? An on-axis close tot he grill track is going to be brighter and have less lows that the sound in the room.

steven70

...

 

monquixote

I don't think it's got anything to do with micing up as you get lost in the mix with a muddy tone regardless.

It's about people playing at home and on YouTube rather than in pubs.

jellybelly

Additional thought - im in my 30s now with a few hundred gigs attended or performed at in total. I can stand a lot more treble in my guitar sound than I ever used to. 

In my early twenties I considered bridge pickups for heavy distortion only and worked hard to make everything sound as warm as possible. 

It could just be ears getting older and all the high end rolling off ...

viz

 







 

viz

viz said:

 







 

Perhaps I should say it a bit louder: Are you sure you’re not just starting to lose top end hearing? I seem to recall you are quite old

Gah, Belly got there first

Philtre

Except one can hear the high end in an amp that is not dark when A/B comparing.

jellybelly

Philtre said:

Except one can hear the high end in an amp that is not dark when A/B comparing.

Yeah you can hear it, you can tell there’s more of  a particular frequency, but what might sound bright and clear to you might be piercing and obnoxious to a 20-something or someone who’s really looked after their hearing. 

My point is essentially that most people on here aren’t either particularly young or particularly likely not to have damaged their hearing at some point.

If they’re aiming amps at younger players (arguably Blackstar and the fender Bassbreakers are) then they might find their target market wants less high end. 

p90fool

Age obviously diminishes top end hearing, but if you dial in your amp sound along with pretty much any commercial recording in any genre they're all brighter than that grainy, farty, YouTube bridge humbucker demo tone. 

There's chewy mids and there's peanut butter toffee marshmallow candyfloss mids.