Why are so many modern guitar amps so middy and muddy?

Sassafras

I keep hearing the phrase "you need loads of mids to cut through the mix". Maybe you do for some types of music, but I don't play those types of music. I like a bold, aggressive bright sound. If you want to 'cut through' turn your volume up.
I also don't like closed back cabs because they dull the highs and don't seem to 'breathe' for want of a better word.

stickyfiddle

As noted, they're aimed at guitarists who want to sound like recorded guitar tones when played on their own, because in your bedroom you can't hear that most classic recorded tones are actually quite shrill in isolation. 

I'm another who has had comments of "crazy high-mid/treble" when others play my guitar, but in a band context (especially one with keys and/or another guitarist) that works wonders.

tone1

I like bright and bassy amps, I can usually dial out a too bright an amp with my guitar’s tone knob, but can’t easily add top end. 

timmypix

I got rid of my Victory V30 Countess for this exact reason. Way too dark, fantastic standalone lead tone but sounded muddy in a mix. Used to have to put an EQ in the loop.

That said, I've got a Sheriff and a Kraken and they're much more controllable. Still very middy but in a cuts-through way rather than a muddy way.

riffpowers

I 100% agree with you.
That's why I'm still looking for an amp after selling my JCM800 last summer.

Modulus_Amps

Amen ICBM!

I have this issue with new build amps, I like brighter amps in general, but with some customers it is a fine line between just bright enough and blanket over the speaker, So I have come up with some tone stack mods that gives greater range on the controls, but the drawback is you have to be more careful with how the controls are set.

Like @digitalscream says I think this is all down to youtube demo's and people not listening to isolated guitar tracks from classic recordings, some of them are proper nasty.

I remember hearing a PRS amp in Andertons a few years ago, zero top end, then at a guitar show there was a demo of some Mega£ high gain amps, also no top end available and I know that on those amps the output transformer is purposely designed that way. you would never hear anything over 3.5kHz from those amps even if you wanted too.

theflyisback

I've been on the lookout for a new gigable valve amp for a while but when i've looked i've found that most amps nowadays seem to be muddy as you say.

Really disappointed as the one I thought was ideal was the Orange Rocker 32 as I wanted to make use of the stereo fx loop but it sounded really lifeless when i tried one.  It has a flat eq on the clean channel mind.  

Really disappointed as well with the Fender Bassbreakers too as on paper they sound great spec wise but again lifeless.

Dare I say, modern day Vox's aren't typically as sparkly, i've found, as they used to be unless you go for the real top end priced ones to boot.



Me and the other guitarist in my band are constantly told by sound guys to lose a bit of high end at gigs.  To be fair we both play tele's and we both have treble boosters in our chain but my amp is ear splitting past 10 o clock on the treble pot on my laney VC30.  He's got a Fender HRD and he's in the same boat.  

Clecko

I demoed a 2nd hand Blackstar HT1 that I happened to see in a local shop at the weekend and had to try three different guitars until I found one that was bright enough to counteract the *incredibly* muddy sound that I simply couldn't dial out of the amp.

The experience was similar to what @ICBM is describing - there wasn't too much bass or mid-range, just no top end or sparkle at all. I thought it was faulty!  

crunchman

I had a Blackstar HT5 for a while.  Ended up selling it.  I would say that it lacked sparkle in the top end.

Clecko

I had an HT5 and sold it, too. I bought one when they first came out. It was my first valve amp and I was wowed by the 'trouser flapping feel at bedroom volumes' hype. I don't recall it being that muddy, but I was only ever happy with it when I ran pedals into it. The next thing I got was a Laney VC15, which was much better at delivering tonal variation and also at making reasonable sounds at lowish volumes!

Jonathanthomas83

Definitely was thinking Victory when I read this, as that's my experience too.

ICBM

Modulus_Amps said:

I have this issue with new build amps, I like brighter amps in general, but with some customers it is a fine line between just bright enough and blanket over the speaker, So I have come up with some tone stack mods that gives greater range on the controls, but the drawback is you have to be more careful with how the controls are set. 

Exactly. I certainly think that if you *want* this sort of sound, then it should be achievable using the tone controls - treble down, mid up, bass about halfway - I just don't understand why there are amps built with this sound at the *bright* end of the control range, leaving you with nowhere to go if you want a more balanced tone.

richardhomer

One of the things I find when I watch That Pedal Show is that Dan & Mick’s clean tones are invariably dull and characterless - even when using expensive amps. Which makes me wonder whether I’m just out of step? I want a clear, bright tone with extended, well controlled bass - not mids without much else....

thecolourbox

richardhomer said:

One of the things I find when I watch That Pedal Show is that Dan & Mick’s clean tones are invariably dull and characterless - even when using expensive amps. Which makes me wonder whether I’m just step? I want a clear, bright tone with extended, well controlled bass - not mids without much else....

I find with most pedal demos the clean sound before the effect is applied sounds terrible, never a sound you could actually use. I'm not sure if that's why I don't end up liking the pedals (because I need to set the amp to sound bad to start with) or whether it's just for contrast to make the pedal sound way better

dilbert

Philtre said:

Victory V40.

How to remove the dark blanket?

1. Treble at 3 o'clock, Bass at 9 o'clock

2. Voice II on

3. Master volume at 2 o'clock

4. Both power tubes on

5. Pedals in front (with a buffer) with treble up

Or....

1. Get a HRD

1. I did!

Though I never had a V40, I had a Trace Elliott Speed Twin C50. Superb build and features but I was on the verge of manic depression after every band practice, the sound was that sodding flat. I was in raptures when I got my HRDIII from @photek, to whom I'm eternally grateful), lovely top end from the first note after all those years of thinking it was me  

Actually, my C30's lacks a bit of sparkle as well but at least the tone knobs work. 

ICBM

dilbert said:

Trace Elliott Speed Twin C50. Superb build

lol

Apart from a tendency for the main PCB to catch fire, anyway...

markr76

I actually don't mind the victory v40. It is on the dark side,  but I like a sound on the darker side anyway. I've 6L6 loaded in mine and I usually use the amp as a backup incase my main amp craps out. I take it to band practice also as its nicec and portable. I like how well it takes pedals. I'm not a fan of the on board reverb at all though.
It's good for what I use it for. I've heard better and I've heard a lot worse.

Grocer_Jack

Interesting thread. I notice that a lot of guitarists seem to like a 'block' of sound where to my ears it's all mushy mids and muted top end. I guess I'm thinking rhythm guitarists mainly. It can work if it's just accompaniment, but it doesn't give any options - little lead runs or odd chords just get lost.

Quite often I get the sound man saying to me - 'that's a bit toppy mate - can you turn the treble down?' before we play, and then saying how good it sounded after! Of course I've left the amp set exactly the same....

It all depends what you're trying to do, but for me a decent old-school Fender or Vox amp just at the point of breakup with plenty of top does just about anything with real clarity. 

sweepy

Give me an amp thats warm, clean, articulate  and actually has real dynamics ! so that rules out @90% of new amps 

Philtre

markr76 said:

I actually don't mind the victory v40. It is on the dark side,  but I like a sound on the darker side anyway. I've 6L6 loaded in mine and I usually use the amp as a backup incase my main amp craps out. I take it to band practice also as its nicec and portable. I like how well it takes pedals. I'm not a fan of the on board reverb at all though.
It's good for what I use it for. I've heard better and I've heard a lot worse.

Can you hear much difference with 6L6 vs EL34s? I tried 6L6s in my V40 and it was noticeably toppier but perhaps lost some mids.