2 hrs of Guitar Porn

RaymondLin

guitars4you said:

lots of good info

Should it not just ultimately comes down to "do you think this is a great guitar", as a guitar, not as a vintage guitar or a reissue.

soma1975

Well yes, but what makes a great guitar? 

If we taste with our eyes and nose as much as with our tongue, I'd put forward that we hear guitars/amps with our hands and eyes as much as with our ears. And there are some people that swear by mushrooms and/or Rickenbackers so there's clearly room for people to have different opinions or to be wrong and insane. 

RaymondLin

soma1975 said:

Well yes, but what makes a great guitar? 

If we taste with our eyes and nose as much as with our tongue, I'd put forward that we hear guitars/amps with our hands and eyes as much as with our ears. And there are some people that swear by mushrooms and/or Rickenbackers so there's clearly room for people to have different opinions or to be wrong and insane. 

Well, I can only think what makes them better.

1 - Materials 
2 - Techniques
3 - Age

Materials - each piece of wood is different so you can't say all old wood is better and all new wood is bad.  I don't believe that the best of the old wood will be better than the best of the new wood either.  

Technique - I also don't believe they make it better than we can now, with more precision instruments, and arguably more experience now too, they barely just invented the LP and Strat back then.  That is to say we haven't learned a thing in 50 years.

So that leaves age - does aging the wood make that much different?  And if it is all about age then in 100 or 500 years, the percentage in age difference would be insignificant?  

Of course then there is the placebo effect too.

guitars4you

RaymondLin said:

guitars4you said:

RaymondLin said:

guitars4you said:

RaymondLin said:

It does beg the question

1 - Are these guitars great because they are old or
2 - Are these guitars great because they were better made in the 50’s

because if it’s 1 then eventually as the years go by, other guitars will catch up with it.  In 100 years from now does it matter if a guitars is 100 or 120 years old?

if it’s 2 then that just suggest we learn nothing about making guitars in the last 50 years and haven’t improved upon it or able to recreate it which is just absurd surely.

Neither

Not all old guitars are good - Some do have some 'magical' qualities regarding their tonal character, but whatever magic is in one guitar is not in them all - Equally 2 good ones can have a slightly different tonal character - But some are just 'dead'

To be fair, many builders, be it the small boutique builders, or the Fender Custom Shop team, they have analysed to the nth degree, what makes a good one so special - It is this process that allows them all to build some good 'replicas' - Even the finer detail, certainly regarding tone, can differ from one replica to another - I commented on FB the other day on a similar issue, that recently I received 4 new 64 C/Shop Strats - All good, but slight variation in the acoustic voice and plugged in voice - To the point that me and  a couple of customers played all 4 side by side and we did not pick the same one we'd buy 

I'm sure the likes of @IvisonGuitars and @Danielsguitars ;; have analysed many good old 'uns' and indeed 'bad old 'uns' to see what magic they can take from them in order to build their own replica's

Are all replicas just as good to the ultimate nth degree - This is the bit that many may well say No - But the difference is now far more minimal, certainly taking into account, the price, the fact that you can change parts on a replica if required, insurance, care, upkeep, let alone the fear of buy a forgery within the vintage market - To the point now that many will own, gig, play, collect replicas 

The issue to a large degree with the vintage market is that the asking price reflects what the guitar is regarding condition, rarity, originality etc and not about how it feels, plays and sounds - ie a good old 'un and a bad old 'un, will have a similar asking price, assuming same condition etc 

I see your point, but I am just trying to understand that.

1 - not all vintage guitars are good.
2 - not all replicas are bad (or good either).

However, lets say....to use a number to measure.

If say a very good vintage guitar is 91/100 (for the sake of argument).  You can also get a CS that is 94/100.  Vice versa you can get a 95/100 vintage and 85/100 CS.

But I think it would be unfair to say that there is a vintage guitar that is 100/100 and no other modern guitars can be like that.  Purely because what is 100/100 for 1 person is only 95/100 for another.

The question i guess is how much influence and placebo the vintage element gets in your head when you play it and whether that is worth the money to you.

Often these topics are easier to discuss then write about - Partly as one discussion point quickly triggers another question/statement

I think it is fair to say that a bloomin' good replica can't be any better than a bloomin' good old 'un - A good replica can be better than a bad old un - But as you are ultimately trying to capture all the magic that is in a good old 'un then you can't build it any better - Change any features of an old 'un, to try and improve how it handles/performs and it is no longer a replica - That is partly why so many players favour 'players grade vintage models' 

Agree that what is perfection for one player is not perfection for another - That is why Joe Walsh sold his old LP as he did not like it as much as his other LP - J Page brought it and the rest is history - I recall buying a couple of guitars from a London 'dealer' about 30 years ago - Also in the corner was an old Lifton case - I asked what was in the case and was told it was a 59 LP - It turned out it belonged to Gary Moore and this 'dealer' was trying to handle the sale - GM had purchased it, as a back up for Greenie, for the Still Got The Blue Tour, but he wasn't getting on with it - I asked if I could have a look at it - 30 seconds later it was back in the case and I recall saying 'I can see why he is trying to sell it' 

Mike at ATB has sold, played more old guitars than I have - I've owned, played, sold some - Some have had the wow factor and some haven't - About a year ago I sold a 63 ES335 for @richardhomer - A very nice guitar and pretty much straight - I commented at the time to Richard and the buyer that it is a good guitar but IMO a good refret would enhance it no end - The buyer kept it for a few months, but later had a re-fret carried out by @SteveRobinson - I spoke to the customer a few weeks later about the refret and was it worth it - He said that yes the playing performance had moved on no end - Maybe slightly off topic, but I see no reason one Iota that a refret should have any impact on the value of an old guitar 

As for your final paragrapgh - The question i guess is how much influence and placebo the vintage element gets in your head when you play it and whether that is worth the money to you. - The easy bit is if you can afford it then you don't need to justify it- If you cant afford it then chances are you can't justify it - Equally if you can't tell any difference, then lucky for you, as you've just saved quite a bit of money - Someone said a few days ago in another OP, if  buying/trying a guitar makes you smile, then it must have something in it for you - You can see on that video how much Mike thought about that Strat

I would suggest to any potential 'vintage' buyer, that try a few, as they are not for everyone - Add to that, do your home work as at today's prices, there is scope for fraudulent models to exist side by side an original one - Either knowingly or by lack of knowledge, some private sellers and dealers will take advantage of your ignorance - And remember the illusion of knowledge is a powerful tool that some sellers will utilise 

Should it not just ultimately comes down to "do you think this is a great guitar", as a guitar, not as a vintage guitar or a reissue.

I think many would agree with that thought pattern/question - And maybe if you only had 1 guitar then maybe far easier to accept that view - But many of us acquire GAS for many different reasons - I am different to many other FB members in that I see a lot of guitars on a regular basis - Yet as Mark, the fellow guitar enthusiast and not as Mark the owner of Guitars4You, any vintage guitar that I have purchased for myself, has always been purchased on the basis of how it performs to me as a guitar - In fact I can't recall ever searching for a vintage guitar - Any vintage purchase I've made for me has been the right place at the right time (or wrong place wrong time as far as my credit card and wife are concerned)

Danielsguitars

Guitars are emotive and no amount of science can get this point, how they look feel and play is a massive part before you've even plugged it in, it's all a very personal experience 

I can't afford any mass produced guitar let alone any player grade vintage and it's this that got me making guitars and comparing to anything relative inc making my own tube amps 

If i can't afford it I'll make it is my mentality, if only had the money to make a cobra replica I'd be building one of them 

RaymondLin

guitars4you said:

Should it not just ultimately comes down to "do you think this is a great guitar", as a guitar, not as a vintage guitar or a reissue.

I think many would agree with that thought pattern/question - And maybe if you only had 1 guitar then maybe far easier to accept that view - But many of us acquire GAS for many different reasons - I am different to many other FB members in that I see a lot of guitars on a regular basis - Yet as Mark, the fellow guitar enthusiast and not as Mark the owner of Guitars4You, any vintage guitar that I have purchased for myself, has always been purchased on the basis of how it performs to me as a guitar - In fact I can't recall ever searching for a vintage guitar - Any vintage purchase I've made for me has been the right place at the right time (or wrong place wrong time as far as my credit card and wife are concerned)

For example, I parted with my PRS Custom 22 because it felt a bit dead to me, it doesn't ring as well as the Custom 24 that i have and no where near the SC58.   Similarly i keep meaning to trade the Palir for a Fender Custom shop because of GAS of the headstock except for the Palir tele rings like a bell, almost like an acoustic... 

soma1975

RaymondLin said:

soma1975 said:

Well yes, but what makes a great guitar? 

If we taste with our eyes and nose as much as with our tongue, I'd put forward that we hear guitars/amps with our hands and eyes as much as with our ears. And there are some people that swear by mushrooms and/or Rickenbackers so there's clearly room for people to have different opinions or to be wrong and insane. 

Well, I can only think what makes them better.

1 - Materials 
2 - Techniques
3 - Age

Materials - each piece of wood is different so you can't say all old wood is better and all new wood is bad.  I don't believe that the best of the old wood will be better than the best of the new wood either.  

Technique - I also don't believe they make it better than we can now, with more precision instruments, and arguably more experience now too, they barely just invented the LP and Strat back then.  That is to say we haven't learned a thing in 50 years.

So that leaves age - does aging the wood make that much different?  And if it is all about age then in 100 or 500 years, the percentage in age difference would be insignificant?  

Of course then there is the placebo effect too.

I don't have the answers I'm afraid. But my point was that there is no objective marker for 'better'. If there was everyone would be wanting a PRS or some such where they are clearly excellently made and constructed withy the best techniques and materials available to us today. What J Mascis wants from a guitar is very different from what Steve Vai wants. Not to mention the multitudes of players who want to have to fight their guitar a bit. 

impmann

As others have said, not all 'vintage' is created equal. I had a lovely looking 65 Strat in Daphne Blue (or Sonic Blue... I'm not sure which) that I paid a kings ransom for. At the time I had a 1994 USA Standard Strat. After the honeymoon period wore off (about 2 weeks) I found that I'd pick up the 94 without thinking... the 65 just sat on a stand doing nothing. Genuinely, *FOR ME* the older guitar just didn't sound as good or play as nice - so I sold it.

An old friend has a 1979 Strat Anniversary - you know, the silvery green things that weigh the same as a Mondeo. I think its the worst piece of shit on planet earth... god knows, I worked on it enough but he loves it. He bought a lovely CS Strat to replace it on my suggestion (a beaut of a guitar) and he played it for two gigs, then it went back in the case under his bed. He still plays the 79 boat anchor. He makes it sing. I make it speak - it says "put me the fuck down" when I play it.

Point is, if you connect with a particular instrument thats cool. It doesn't matter what it is or where it was made or from what material it was made etc. I found this video one of the more enjoyable ones - its all about entertainment folks - and watching Mickhere connect with that 62 Strat was an abject lesson in what I'm on about. For whatever reason, he played better on that instrument than I've heard him play before - is it psychological, is is physical or is it the sound? Who the fuck cares. Its about music and if playing that guitar makes *that player* make better music or have more enjoyment from playing, then I say bring it on.

And I say the above as someone who doesn't necessarily buy into the vintage guitar thing.

RaymondLin

impmann said:

As others have said, not all 'vintage' is created equal. I had a lovely looking 65 Strat in Daphne Blue (or Sonic Blue... I'm not sure which) that I paid a kings ransom for. At the time I had a 1994 USA Standard Strat. After the honeymoon period wore off (about 2 weeks) I found that I'd pick up the 94 without thinking... the 65 just sat on a stand doing nothing. Genuinely, *FOR ME* the older guitar just didn't sound as good or play as nice - so I sold it.

An old friend has a 1979 Strat Anniversary - you know, the silvery green things that weigh the same as a Mondeo. I think its the worst piece of shit on planet earth... god knows, I worked on it enough but he loves it. He bought a lovely CS Strat to replace it on my suggestion (a beaut of a guitar) and he played it for two gigs, then it went back in the case under his bed. He still plays the 79 boat anchor. He makes it sing. I make it speak - it says "put me the fuck down" when I play it.

Point is, if you connect with a particular instrument thats cool. It doesn't matter what it is or where it was made or from what material it was made etc. I found this video one of the more enjoyable ones - its all about entertainment folks - and watching Mickhere connect with that 62 Strat was an abject lesson in what I'm on about. For whatever reason, he played better on that instrument than I've heard him play before - is it psychological, is is physical or is it the sound? Who the fuck cares. Its about music and if playing that guitar makes *that player* make better music or have more enjoyment from playing, then I say bring it on.

And I say the above as someone who doesn't necessarily buy into the vintage guitar thing.

Essentially (and obviously), it is the guitar that you gel with and speaks to you.

It's just so happens that when that happens with a vintage one, people put it down to it being vintage, less so about it being a guitar you actually bond with.

guitars4you

impmann said:

As others have said, not all 'vintage' is created equal. I had a lovely looking 65 Strat in Daphne Blue (or Sonic Blue... I'm not sure which) that I paid a kings ransom for. At the time I had a 1994 USA Standard Strat. After the honeymoon period wore off (about 2 weeks) I found that I'd pick up the 94 without thinking... the 65 just sat on a stand doing nothing. Genuinely, *FOR ME* the older guitar just didn't sound as good or play as nice - so I sold it.

An old friend has a 1979 Strat Anniversary - you know, the silvery green things that weigh the same as a Mondeo. I think its the worst piece of shit on planet earth... god knows, I worked on it enough but he loves it. He bought a lovely CS Strat to replace it on my suggestion (a beaut of a guitar) and he played it for two gigs, then it went back in the case under his bed. He still plays the 79 boat anchor. He makes it sing. I make it speak - it says "put me the fuck down" when I play it.

Point is, if you connect with a particular instrument thats cool. It doesn't matter what it is or where it was made or from what material it was made etc. I found this video one of the more enjoyable ones - its all about entertainment folks - and watching Mickhere connect with that 62 Strat was an abject lesson in what I'm on about. For whatever reason, he played better on that instrument than I've heard him play before - is it psychological, is is physical or is it the sound? Who the fuck cares. Its about music and if playing that guitar makes *that player* make better music or have more enjoyment from playing, then I say bring it on.

And I say the above as someone who doesn't necessarily buy into the vintage guitar thing.

It is interesting to see how many times someone bonds with a guitar, that you and I would walk away from - Often without even playing it, on the presumption that if it is like the other models you've tied, then it will be crap

As something of a B Setzer fan, I'm trying to play more 50s rock n roll/swing etc, so I have 1/2 an eye on a 6120 - Yet I have never found one that is close to making me think I could bond with it - Yet funnily enough I've played a few of the cheaper electromatic models that feel more than okay - I even played an early 70's Tennessean recently that was 'scorching' with regards to playability and we all tend to think of these as crap - So either of those with better pick-ups would be a better bet  - So that thought process should further lead me in the direction of to buy a guitar that you can work/bond with 

gringopig

.

richardhomer

I’ve owned a number of vintage guitars, including ‘63 and ‘65 Strats and a ‘64 335.

The first one I bought was the ‘65 Strat. It was certainly better than the 70s Strat I owned at the time - but in the great scheme of things - only marginally so. The ‘63 was ‘much’ better than the ‘65. Once I bought that, the ‘65 was soon moved on - old guitars are not consistently brilliant - though these days they are consistently expensive.

I have a CS Strat now which looks, feels and sounds great - whether it is ultimately as good as the ‘63 doesn’t really matter. Chasing the minutiae of tonal differences is an unhealthy obsession that just gets in the way of playing for me.

I don’t doubt Mick and Dan had a great time playing some iconic vintage guitars - but some of their tonal claims - bearing in mind they were using unfamiliar amps, in a room they weren’t used to - and often through a lot of pedals - are probably a tad ‘generous’. To my ears, some really didn’t sound ‘that’ great. I watched the follow-up Q & A video tonight and Mick already seems to have cooled on the idea of actually owing a vintage guitar. He talked about the ‘62 in the original video as being something he could gig. It’s on ATB’s site (marked sold incidentally) at just shy of £15,000. I wouldn’t consider something ‘that’ valuable to be a suitable gigging companion. And having reflected on it, I got the impression Mick doesn’t either....

 

gringopig

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thegummy

gringopig said:

richardhomer said:

Chasing the minutiae of tonal differences is an unhealthy obsession that just gets in the way of playing for me.
 

I agree totally. It's just pointless. 
Actually, a lot of what is posted on this forum is about gear and equipment and I've often wondered why the playing aspect is not to the fore.

This is the guitar forum from the "gear" section.

There's a whole "playing" section with several forums where you'll likely find more posts about playing than gear.

UnclePsychosis

thegummy said:

gringopig said:

richardhomer said:

Chasing the minutiae of tonal differences is an unhealthy obsession that just gets in the way of playing for me.
 

I agree totally. It's just pointless. 
Actually, a lot of what is posted on this forum is about gear and equipment and I've often wondered why the playing aspect is not to the fore.

This is the guitar forum from the "gear" section.

There's a whole "playing" section with several forums where you'll likely find more posts about playing than gear.

Number of posts in Guitar forum: 526k
Number of posts in Technique forum: 14.9k

Let's be brutally honest with ourselves here. Guitar forums have always been far more about collecting and guitars as cool objects than they have playing or performing. Which is fine, collecting interesting objects is fun. 

ourmaninthenorth

I've long since binned the idea of finding definitives in guitars. 

They're rather like people, some I instinctively love and adore sharing time with, and others I simply don't want to be in the same room as. 

I steer to my own bearings, and don't need the approval of the informed. 

Favourite guitar played to date? A 1959 Les Paul Standard. 

Why? Because it made me smile the most. 

This stuff is really simple, I enjoy keeping it thus.

thegummy

UnclePsychosis said:

thegummy said:

gringopig said:

richardhomer said:

Chasing the minutiae of tonal differences is an unhealthy obsession that just gets in the way of playing for me.
 

I agree totally. It's just pointless. 
Actually, a lot of what is posted on this forum is about gear and equipment and I've often wondered why the playing aspect is not to the fore.

This is the guitar forum from the "gear" section.

There's a whole "playing" section with several forums where you'll likely find more posts about playing than gear.

Number of posts in Guitar forum: 526k
Number of posts in Technique forum: 14.9k

Let's be brutally honest with ourselves here. Guitar forums have always been far more about collecting and guitars as cool objects than they have playing or performing. Which is fine, collecting interesting objects is fun. 

Dunno about that, I like to talk about guitars but as tools, not as cool objects or collectibles.

There obviously will be some people on here who just collect them as objects but I'm sure there are plenty like me.

Might just be the threads I happen to click on but most of the talk about guitars is seemingly to do with the functionality of them as tools.

CountryDave

ourmaninthenorth said:

I've long since binned the idea of finding definitives in guitars. 

They're rather like people, some I instinctively love and adore sharing time with, and others I simply don't want to be in the same room as. 

I steer to my own bearings, and don't need the approval of the informed. 

Favourite guitar played to date? A 1959 Les Paul Standard. 

Why? Because it made me smile the most. 

This stuff is really simple, I enjoy keeping it thus.

Smashed it out of the park here.

Ultimately it's about what makes the individual happy.

I've a 52 reissue tele that I've had and gigged for 10 years.  Would I swap it for a custom shop version? no, and I have played many, but none have made me feel the way this one does when I pick it up.

A friend has a '74 tele that he loves to bits. Does the same for him as my 52ri does for me. Personally for me, it weighs about the same as an armchair, I can fit a credit card in the neck pocket gap (and it has room to wobble and fall out), it's been badly gouged for a neck humbucker and has had a big brass 70's bridge added at some previous point in it's life and sounds (to my ears) a bit wooly.  But he loves it.

By the way, I have been lucky enough to play a few original early teles and some early strats.  They were mostly really nice guitars, and will surely will have made someone very happy.

I will also admit to having a bit of a soft spot for the 56 Goldtop that was on the Haydock stand earlier this year.  Didn't get to hold/play it and that's happen as well as I can neither afford that or the divorce that would surely come if I even went for a reissue of it.

zepp76

As a massive Gibson Les Paul fan I'd never be able to afford a vintage one so have to "make do" with modern ones. I have a cheaper 70's Tribute studio and an '04 standard both of which I love dearly so am I really missing out? I don't think so, both guitars are fantastic but if I had the money I'd buy a vintage one in a heartbeat, wether or not it'd be a better guitar for being vintage I don't know as I've never had the privilege of trying one.

ourmaninthenorth

zepp76 said:

As a massive Gibson Les Paul fan I'd never be able to afford a vintage one so have to "make do" with modern ones. I have a cheaper 70's Tribute studio and an '04 standard both of which I love dearly so am I really missing out? I don't think so, both guitars are fantastic but if I had the money I'd buy a vintage one in a heartbeat, wether or not it'd be a better guitar for being vintage I don't know as I've never had the privilege of trying one.

Never say never Pal.

I often find the word vintage is used somewhat narrowly, that is it only applies to the most prized older instruments. You can tell they're prized by the 6 figures attached to them. 

I venture to suggest that a competent guitar player can get a 4 figure 50's Special well within the ball park of it's 6 figure brethren. In fact I don't suggest anything, I've done it, a number of times.

 A 50's PAF 345 isn't called a 'Burst killer for nothing. Buttons in comparison to it's opponent.

I've had Historic's up against 'Bursts, the small percentile differences don't translate into the huge fiscal margins between. 

I've heard fakes that are so good it makes a halfwit out of me for hating every last bloody one of them. 

Having said all that, I can make every single one of them, on any given day, sound like shite. 

Where the "best guitar in the world" then....?