Buying a Vintage Fender

ICBM

p90fool said:

Regarding the lack of butchered Fenders around these days there are a couple of factors at play. Their modular design means you can replace a Floyd Rose routed body with another one. 

All this parts juggling obviously leads to fewer guitars overall as the messed-with parts are binned, but means that the remaining guitars are are all now "original" again.

Obviously they're not really, but the parts are real so everyone's happy. 

The other factor involved in there being a suspiciously large number of original Fenders these days is the huge numbers of guitars imported from the US. 

When I was a teenager there were four pre-CBS Fender guitars and one pre-CBS Precision Bass in my small Welsh town, and they ALL had battered, original Selmer cases, indicating that they were bought new in this country. Nowadays Fender cases are far more common, showing that way more pre-CBS guitars have arrived in more recent years. 

So the number of good guitars does seem suspicious sometimes, but there can often be a plausible explanation for it. 

The other reason is this...

It's a '62 Strat body which when it came to me, had a bridge humbucker "rout" which looked like it was done by Jack Nicholson in The Shining.

I cleanly routed the hole larger and square, patched it with matching wood and re-routed the original pickup cavity shape. I just did the woodwork not the refinish, this was a progress shot the owner sent back to me afterwards, before final finishing and ageing.



So *any* solid-colour Fender has to be treated with suspicion unless you have 100% provenance. You might think that if it's that invisible it doesn't matter, but I'd take a bet that no matter the trouble I went to to get the patch perfect and really tight, eventually there will be a shrinkage line.

JezWynd

Barnezy said:

Let's put it another way. I'd like to spend £15k on a vintage Strat, that I intend to keep, use and eventually pass on. What are the pitfalls, where do I look, who to I speak to for advice, how do I avoid being ripped off? 

Unless you have a very good friend whose advice you trust, I would not go down this road. There are too many sharks who would love to hoover up your 15k without a backward glance.

Why not spend 5k getting the very best playing Fender you can find and just enjoy playing it for the next x number of years before passing it on.

rossi

I think if you want one get it .You can play a great guitar and who knows, or cares, what your son may want .The future is rarely second guessed  and no one knows whats coming .Just enjoy it while its there .Thats all any of us can do .

richardhomer

ICBM said:

The other reason is this...

It's a '62 Strat body which when it came to me, had a bridge humbucker "rout" which looked like it was done by Jack Nicholson in The Shining.

I cleanly routed the hole larger and square, patched it with matching wood and re-routed the original pickup cavity shape. I just did the woodwork not the refinish, this was a progress shot the owner sent back to me afterwards, before final finishing and ageing.



So *any* solid-colour Fender has to be treated with suspicion unless you have 100% provenance. You might think that if it's that invisible it doesn't matter, but I'd take a bet that no matter the trouble I went to to get the patch perfect and really tight, eventually there will be a shrinkage line.

I’ve also heard stories in the trade of old necks being fitted to Tokai bodies with aged refinishes. Pots with correct date codes get shared around between guitars - so at leat one of them appears to be ‘original’. 

The retailers who claim great expertise/integrity are unlikely to get caught out by many customers, as most buyers know less than the seller. 

As as I said in my earlier post - I ‘think’ I’d be able to authenticate a real one - but I wouldn’t be so confident if £15,000 was at stake.

springhead

SteveRobinson said:

ICBM said:

bloomer said:

I'd get this special http://www.davidjpym.com/page396.html

Those have a nasty habit of the neck falling off!

The neck join looks like it's had a bit of movement from the lacquer cracks all around it?

Yes, and odd for a late '59 to still have the 'version 1' neck pickup location that causes that problem.

guitars4you

richardhomer said:

I’ve also heard stories in the trade of old necks being fitted to Tokai bodies with aged refinishes. Pots with correct date codes get shared around between guitars - so at leat one of them appears to be ‘original’. 

The retailers who claim great expertise/integrity are unlikely to get caught out by many customers, as most buyers know less than the seller. 

Don't just blame it on retailers - many such vintage guitars are now sold via REverb + Ebay etc via the public and/or bedroom dealers

Plus remember there is often a case of 'the illusion of knowledge' which can be a very powerful tool - Especially to the unsuspecting punter

TeleMaster

I’ve got an early L Series 64 Pre CBS Strat. Lovely thing. It’s a refin. I got it in a trade definitely in my favour. It's all original aside from that and a bit of wiring. Case is non-original. It's been confirmed by multiple sources with a lot of provenance. While I don't think it'll appreciate hugely in value, it can't depreciate from what I got it for, and again, one day it'll go to my son if he's into guitars.

ATB_Guitars

Here’s my 2 pence worth.

Buy a pre-CBS Strat. Do so, especially if it is something you have always wanted and will enjoy owning and playing. 

They are, and always have been one of the blue chip stocks of the Vintage Guitar marketplace and in my opinion this is unlikely to change. They are not so subject to fads or fashion trends as much as some other guitars and I think you will find influential players from every era who have played Strats. 

I was paying around 4-5k for one 18 years ago that I could sell today for 20k. I would love to be able to sell you one but I just do not have any, they tend to go pretty fast when they get here and despite looking very hard recently, I have not found any that I would call good examples for sale at decent prices.

For £15k you would get a very nice late '64 transitional logo example which would be just pre-CBS - you might even get one for a bit less if condition is not so important. If you want the classic, earlier spagetti logo from '59 to early '64 you would need nearer the £20k mark but exceptions do and will exist.

Look for originality, especially the finish, make sure the solder joints look original and check to see if the neck/body fit is good, if it is not then this could be a sign of a transplantation somewhere down the line. There are loads more points to look for of course but these I think are the most important.

Custom colours are another ball game but luckily (or not!) your budget will not stretch to an original one.

There are a lot of fakes out there so you do need to be careful. I would of course advise you to buy from a dealer as you have the come back if something goes wrong that you do not get when buying privately. You will also often get an inspection report or COA that can be a handy thing to have when you come to sell it on. That being said, I am always happy to give un-biased opinions on other guitars, just DM me.

Good luck with your hunt and if you decide to go for it, then just enjoy whatever you get. Buy well and you will have an investment that will provide you with a lot of pleasure too.

KDS

TeleMaster said:

I’ve got an early L Series 64 Pre CBS Strat. Lovely thing. It’s a refin. I got it in a trade definitely in my favour. It's all original aside from that and a bit of wiring. Case is non-original. It's been confirmed by multiple sources with a lot of provenance. While I don't think it'll appreciate hugely in value, it can't depreciate from what I got it for, and again, one day it'll go to my son if he's into guitars.

As I’ve previously said, i won’t buy one, but is it for sale

TeleMaster

KDS said:

TeleMaster said:

I’ve got an early L Series 64 Pre CBS Strat. Lovely thing. It’s a refin. I got it in a trade definitely in my favour. It's all original aside from that and a bit of wiring. Case is non-original. It's been confirmed by multiple sources with a lot of provenance. While I don't think it'll appreciate hugely in value, it can't depreciate from what I got it for, and again, one day it'll go to my son if he's into guitars.

As I’ve previously said, i won’t buy one, but is it for sale

I'm afraid not!!!

KDS

TeleMaster said:

KDS said:

TeleMaster said:

I’ve got an early L Series 64 Pre CBS Strat. Lovely thing. It’s a refin. I got it in a trade definitely in my favour. It's all original aside from that and a bit of wiring. Case is non-original. It's been confirmed by multiple sources with a lot of provenance. While I don't think it'll appreciate hugely in value, it can't depreciate from what I got it for, and again, one day it'll go to my son if he's into guitars.

As I’ve previously said, i won’t buy one, but is it for sale

I'm afraid not!!!

Looks lovely

Sg335man

Always difficult decision with lots of opinions and options. My 58 yrs playing and a pro at 22 would advise you to be very very careful who you speak to and get in bed with.  10-15k is a lot of money? With any investment you may not get the return you want when you want?  There’s always the possibility of a con hopefully not!  Most shops including dealers large and small rarely have that kind of instrument on the shelf? They may on consignment.  I would contact some of the US established dealers like Manny’s in NY even the Guitar Center main hub. There’s many.  Also the established auction rooms a thought? Do your home work thoroughly as best you can and find an experienced luthier to check any instruments out before splashing out the cash.  It has to be playable? My I wish you well with this. DH

Sg335man

Sorry about the Mannys Music NY gone but that kind of shop like www.guitars.com in Nashville 

PhilKing

I'm lucky and old enough to have picked up vintage guitars in the early 80's.  I got my 1960 Strat from Vinage & Rare back when they were in Holland Park, for £500 (though it had a Roger Giffin burgundy mist refin) and then picked up a 1963 a month later, that had had a humbucker put in the bridge for £325 at JSG in Bingley.  I proceded to swap the necks and backplates on both of them, as I liked the slab rosewood, but liked the humbucker.  Many years later (in 1991), I sold a friend the 1963 for $1,900.  I had told him all about the changes, so he was aware.  A bit later he took it to Gruhn Guitars to have it valued.  They told him it was an original 1963 Burgundy Mist Strat and valued it at $8,000.  I actually have the guitar back, as my friend passed away and in his will he had left a note to say that I could buy it back for $1,900, in the case is the Gruhn valuation.

My point with this is that the main dealers can't always tell the provenance of a vintage Strat.  Now when my friend had it valued, the refinish was around 15 years old and was lacquer checked and looked correct, so that was part of the issue.  Depending when the guitars were refinished and what was used (this was a nitro refin in the correct paint), you might not be able to tell now.

I also have a 1957 that I picked up on ebay for a song, as it had been refinished and refretted within an inch of its life and had DiMarzio pickups on it.  I wasn't worried, as I was happy with the refin and was going to change the pickups anyway.  It has BK Apaches on it, that were aged with an aged scratchplate, before BK did that service themselves.  All I can tell you is that it is a masterpiece of aging.  Even the pickup covers show scratches from the height adjustment screws, just as my old guitars do.

I took the 57 to John at Bravewood for him to make me a replica of it, to play out with.  At the same time, I had him make me a 64 strat with a humbucker added to the bridge, using the old parts from my 63 (I had picked up a real early 60's scratchplate and converted the 60 back to 3 single coil pickups.  I currently play all of them, but for gigs, I use the Bravewoods and one that I put together myself with a copy of the slab rosewood neck.

I just want to show you the pitfalls of vintage guitars.  No-one has been able to tell that the Bravewoods are not original (though they have my initials inside the body and on the neck) and even my strat is mistaken for an original (though the decal says Fecker Partsocaster).  btw, my 64 Bravewood is in a Selmer case, which might make it look more original.

My old guitars are all bits from others really, but I haven't payed much for them, so I wasn't worried (at one time the 60 even had EMG's on it).  I wouldn't want to pay £15k unless you could see that the solder joints were intact and that there was some provenance about the guitar.

One last thing, isn't 7% return pretty high at the moment?

RaymondLin

7% return is the historic return for the stock market over the past few decades, it includes the crash in 2008. So it’s not about at the moment but time tested as we are talking about a long term investment (18 years).

bgmartinsbridge

So just make sure you don't invest in 2007 ;-) 

sawyer

I've often wondered if custom Shop relics might be the next big thing investmentwise? You know how it went when 50/60's guitars were all bought up in the day and suddenly 70's Fenders were the next best thing? I reckon this will be the case with a good (not a ridiculous ) relic. 18 year from now those original guitars won't be seen out the house or bank. Relics will be creeping into the vintag territory. Get a good builder and colour and Bob's ya Uncle.

koneguitarist

Personally I would not buy a vintage strat, 20 years ago yes, but now we have so many expert refinishers, and reissue fenders are so accurate with a bit of faking who knows what they have. 
At one stage it was estimated there were more custom colour strats in Londo than fender made. 
Also Selmer refinished a lot of strats, Clive Brown does some awesome refinishers but can he honestly say or remember how many he has done. Or even how many were truly original in first place. 
In 1980 I was gigging in a band when bassist swapped his natural precision for an 63 Jazz bass in a dark (apparently original) Green finish. Years later he offered me bass for sale but he had since sprayed bass black. I bought it cheap and decided to restore it back to the green, but when refinisher started stripping it back underneath the green was a sunburst. 
Who sprayed it green? Selmers, Fender, local guy, all happened years before he swapped it. 
Its a minefield and I honestly don't think even the experts can state anymore exactly what age any Fender is. 
Vintage Gibsons I believe are much harder to fake. 

Barnezy

I thought this about some master builders such as Todd Krause, as when he stops, you'll only be able to buy used. However you're still looking at £9k for such a guitar and for that I'd much rather an original of the guitar they are trying to recreate. 

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

Its a minefield and I honestly don't think even the experts can state anymore exactly what age any Fender is. 
Vintage Gibsons I believe are much harder to fake. 

Harder, but by no means impossible when you see some of the restorations which have been posted on here alone.

Interestingly one of the 'tells' is the smell - but it's also possible to put a refinished guitar in an old case, and it will pick up some of that.