Buying a Vintage Fender

bgmartinsbridge

It's rare but if you can find a guitar with provenance and paperwork it helps. 

koneguitarist

ICBM said:

koneguitarist said:

Its a minefield and I honestly don't think even the experts can state anymore exactly what age any Fender is. 
Vintage Gibsons I believe are much harder to fake. 

Harder, but by no means impossible when you see some of the restorations which have been posted on here alone.

Interestingly one of the 'tells' is the smell - but it's also possible to put a refinished guitar in an old case, and it will pick up some of that.

I have had and handled a lot of vintage gear, worked in guitar shop and owning my own shops. I have probably owned in the region 50-60 fenders, I have had guitar shops ask me to come in and look at guitars to give my verdict. That was up until about 20 years ago, since then the costs of vintage fenders is big business and with that the unscrupulous forging which has gotten better and better. 
I don't have the skills to tell if fake or not anymore. 

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

I have had and handled a lot of vintage gear, worked in guitar shop and owning my own shops. I have probably owned in the region 50-60 fenders, I have had guitar shops ask me to come in and look at guitars to give my verdict. That was up until about 20 years ago, since then the costs of vintage fenders is big business and with that the unscrupulous forging which has gotten better and better. 

I don't have the skills to tell if fake or not anymore. 

Yes, same here - I can still spot definite fakes when there's something wrong that you can prove that it wan't assembled in the right order or something, but for the ones where there are no clear tells it can become very difficult to be sure either way, and thousands of pounds are at stake. The best you can often say is 'appears to be genuine, but can't be guaranteed'.

bgmartinsbridge

I thought I was pretty good at spotting fakes and originality on sixties Fenders. Can't do early Gibsons. 

Came across one recently which looked spot on to me but it's been pointed out to me that the truss rod is slightly out of position at the end of the neck. Scarey tiny details that then lead on to bigger questions. 

ICBM

bgmartinsbridge said:

Came across one recently which looked spot on to me but it's been pointed out to me that the truss rod is slightly out of position at the end of the neck.

With a Gibson that's more likely to indicate it's genuine .

koneguitarist

Years ago one of my shop customers told me he had bought a 53 tele from the states. I said can I see it, when it comes in as it has to go through customs and all sorts of things. 
Now A. this guy had plenty of money, 
B, he knew his guitars and was buying specific examples.
And last but no means C, he told me where he was buying it from, I looked on site and yes there was a 53 tele, just sold. 

Anyway guitar finally came in and he brought it across in a shop full of customers with a friend of mine who was also a solicitor. He passed me guitar, and without really looking just by feel of neck I said I think this is a fake. Cue hush in the shop, he said why, and I wasn't entirely sure at first it was just a feel thing. Looked over the body, and I could see the pin routs on back. Bridge plate had a correct serial number. But to me it didn't feel like an old guitar. He then confessed that he did it himself and modelled it on Roy Buchanans Tele. he kept original reissue bridge plate but welded it up around serial number and restamped it. He stripped body, resprayed it in cellulose then swept his bloody gravel drive with it!!!

He then had the nerve to tell me it was a MIJ Esquire that I had used for about 6months and sold to a mate of his. He did an amazing job and it must have cost him a fortune, and he did it just to test me. 
Point I am making is, I almost said yes nice guitar and left him to it thinking mug, more money than sense. But I thought honesty was best policy. and funnily enough after I closed my shop I worked for him for 7 years because of that incident. 
How many of us have played a 'vintage' fender and thought fake but not said anything?
 

bloomer

what about a strat that isn't pre CBS but close? I wouldn't have thought anyone bothers faking them, may as well fake a pre CBS and get more money. You could get a nice 66 from a dealer and be pretty confident it's the real deal. Quality will still be comparable to pre CBS in 1966 would have thought.

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

How many of us have played a 'vintage' fender and thought fake but not said anything?

I have. And a Gibson which I'm sure was refinished/relic'ed and not quite what the owner thought it was, even though it was a genuine Gibson.

But if asked then I will have to be honest - or if I know it's going to be for sale.

bloomer said:

what about a strat that isn't pre CBS but close? I wouldn't have thought anyone bothers faking them, may as well fake a pre CBS and get more money. You could get a nice 66 from a dealer and be pretty confident it's the real deal. Quality will still be comparable to pre CBS in 1966 would have thought.

True to an extent, but these are also big-money guitars now, so there is an incentive to make a fake that has less chance of being analysed in minute detail. Some parts of them - pickguards especially - are also much easier to fake.

bgmartinsbridge

Taking it away from vintage totally for a mo, what about custom shop Fenders which are parts guitars and have no coa but an original neck plate.
There are always a few doing the rounds. 
Obv you can check the serial plate against the coa if it exists and then get the floor traveler spec from the custom shop. 

PhilKing

I had an original 67 back in the 70's and it wasn't a great guitar.  To be fair, with what I know now, I might have been able to tweak it to get it better, but my mate's 66 was way nicer.  I do have a fake 66 Bravewood, with a bound neck in blue ice metallic, so there are fakes around

thebreeze

I think a fair amount of the concerns get taken care of by the market.  It’s true that lots of Fenders have had changes and things swapped about and fakes abound (for all makers).  But clean, case queen, hardly touched examples do exist too.  They command a premium, high price but I think people can be pretty certain that they are what they are, let’s say the experts can agree and feel confident.  Then you get different degrees of changes and adaptations below that. Frets, finishes, rewinds, nuts, electronics etc etc. down to screws and plastics.  So the prices change accordingly.  You always have to be wary and on the look out for fakes and make assessments about the guitar in front of you.  However, the price usually reflects the changes and the doubts.  What people have to decide for themselves is whether buying any of these instruments is worth the price.  You might buy a spotless Queen Anne dining table for £100,000 or a refinished one with a repaired leg for £20,000 or a table top which once belonged to a Queen Anne table but has been joined to a base made in Victorian times for £3,000 (I don’t really know this world but I’m trying to make a point).
I think we can get too hung up on whether you can be 100% sure about everything.  I sort of agree with ATB Guitars, these guitars are, and will continue to be, sought out.  They come from an era, have cultural and historical significance and are often great examples of what they are (electric guitars).  CS are good too, but they’re reproductions.  They’ll have there own fans over time but it’s a different market.

Its a bit sad to think of these instruments in these terms and they should definitely be played but I guess Queen Anne dining tables began life just being things to eat off and gathered around probably not expecting to end up in show rooms in Bond Street.