“Masterbuilt” or “guitar by stencil”...

Kittyfrisk

PS  @poopot ; started this thread well away from the way it's going now (yes, I'm guilty too) so maybe we should go back to his original point " So there’s where the extra money goes!... to make sure they follow the stencil perfectly!!!!! "
Or accept that the point is well made, proven, note it & move along?   

dazzajl

Kittyfrisk said:

@dazzajl ;;  & @lysander ;;
I agree with your points relating to the 'real' playability & 'worth' of any good, well set up guitar, regardless of it's provenance  versus it's perceived value on the 'grown up' collector market.
 Be careful though, you may end up on the list of "idiots" to be ridiculed for such heresy/naivety.
On the plus side, don't worry, there are loads of us there already, still having real fun with our 'cheap' wannabe guitars & laughing like drains      

If you've got me figured, you'll know I've got time for everything and as long as people are happy, it's all good.

I used to hang out on a photography forum, was a lot like this place for a while. Then one day a chap posted very proudly to say he'd just bought himself a Leica. A digital affair that was also available as a Panasonic branded version for about a third of the price. He told the tale of how he'd always wanted to own a Leica since he was a boy and now in his retirement, he'd been able to get his hands on one. He told of how it had reignited his passion for taking photos and how he was out walking in the local countryside almost everyday since buying it. A completely uplifting and joyous story.

But instead of folks posting to congratulate him or pass a kind comment on the pics he posted, they rounded on like a mob trying to get him to admit that he'd been an idiot for not getting the much cheaper Panasonic version. They totally missed the point that he'd fulfilled a dream and spent his money on something that made him very happy. At least until those idiots ruined that for him.  

Kittyfrisk

dazzajl said:

Kittyfrisk said:

@dazzajl ;;  & @lysander ;;
I agree with your points relating to the 'real' playability & 'worth' of any good, well set up guitar, regardless of it's provenance  versus it's perceived value on the 'grown up' collector market.
 Be careful though, you may end up on the list of "idiots" to be ridiculed for such heresy/naivety.
On the plus side, don't worry, there are loads of us there already, still having real fun with our 'cheap' wannabe guitars & laughing like drains      

If you've got me figured, you'll know I've got time for everything and as long as people are happy, it's all good.

I used to hang out on a photography forum, was a lot like this place for a while. Then one day a chap posted very proudly to say he'd just bought himself a Leica. A digital affair that was also available as a Panasonic branded version for about a third of the price. He told the tale of how he'd always wanted to own a Leica since he was a boy and now in his retirement, he'd been able to get his hands on one. He told of how it had reignited his passion for taking photos and how he was out walking in the local countryside almost everyday since buying it. A completely uplifting and joyous story.

But instead of folks posting to congratulate him or pass a kind comment on the pics he posted, they rounded on like a mob trying to get him to admit that he'd been an idiot for not getting the much cheaper Panasonic version. They totally missed the point that he'd fulfilled a dream and spent his money on something that made him very happy. At least until ttht is refhose idiots ruined that for him.  

Jeez, that is both refreshing & weird. Usually the prejudice runs the other way round, regardless of equivalence of hardware, the big brand name rules OK & therefore Leica trumps Panasonic  

ICBM

That’s a difficult one... they may have ruined his happiness, but he’d also been ripped off.

Kittyfrisk

ICBM said:

That’s a difficult one... they may have ruined his happiness, but he’d also been badly advised.

Gently adjusted 
Isn't hindsight bloody marvellous & never wrong ? 

dazzajl

ICBM said:

That’s a difficult one... they may have ruined his happiness, but he’d also been ripped off.

He wasn’t ripped off or badly advised. He chose to spend extra to have something that gave him emotional pleasure as well as filling a function. 

Surely buying a CS shop guitar can be in the same league? 

Schnozz

I've tried one of the 1954 Anniversary Masterbuilts during a long hunt for a Strat, as made by Greg Fessler in 2004 (was £2600 at the time), but eventually settled on a G&L George Fullerton Signature from 2007 (about £1300 NOS - Not the finish). To date, the best Strat I have played was a Japanese Tokai TST50 (£699) and I think it was made in 2013 - I tried others of the same Model and it was just a freak. so they're not that consistent.

The Fessler was not worth more than £2k IMO, especially as Cloudnine's Rocketfire sold for £1300 a couple of weeks ago; I've tried those as well and they're definitely on a par with the Masterbuilt.

stickyfiddle

dazzajl said:

ICBM said:

That’s a difficult one... they may have ruined his happiness, but he’d also been ripped off.

He wasn’t ripped off or badly advised. He chose to spend extra to have something that gave him emotional pleasure as well as filling a function. 

Surely buying a CS shop guitar can be in the same league? 

I get the "emotional connection" bit, but I would suggest (as I'm sure many on the other photography thread in question would have) that the Leica-branded Panasonic is really just a Lumix, and not really a classic German-made Leica, so the emotional bit is a bit moot, for me. 

dazzajl

stickyfiddle said:

dazzajl said:

ICBM said:

That’s a difficult one... they may have ruined his happiness, but he’d also been ripped off.

He wasn’t ripped off or badly advised. He chose to spend extra to have something that gave him emotional pleasure as well as filling a function. 

Surely buying a CS shop guitar can be in the same league? 

I get the "emotional connection" bit, but I would suggest (as I'm sure many on the other photography thread in question would have) that the Leica-branded Panasonic is really just a Lumix, and not really a classic German-made Leica, so the emotional bit is a bit moot, for me. 

For me too but that doesn’t mean I’d have a problem with it being good for someone else. Be it the Leica/Panny distinction or which Fender factory a guitar was built in. 

bgmartinsbridge

@Schnozz - Totally with you on the multi run anniversary Masterbuilts. Those I just don't get and seem churned out by the hundreds and all look identical, with the same parts?

A masterbuilt should be an individual item - which comes back to the original thread. 
Use a stencil but use it once and throw it away. 

poopot

I understand the “aspirational” aspect... I get that!...

what i have issue with is that the fender marketing department have created the aspirational desire in folk based on a lie!... it’s snake oil sales... the guitars are made in the same way as the standard ranges, different finish and hardware but it’s the same basic construction.

masterbuilt is fine IF the individual instruments are individual, IF they are built from scratch by a skilled luthier and not just a trained factory worker bolting premade bits together (which tbh that’s what they are)...

looking at it from the other side, top marks to the marketing bods as they have everyone convinced that masterbuilt, Abby pickups etc are the things we not only desire but need!... job done in that respect!...

bgmartinsbridge

I wonder how John Cruz or Todd Krause etc would feel about being called 'just a trained factory worker bolting bits together' :-) 

poopot

John Cruz came to Fender in 1987, joined the Custom Shop in 1993 and became a Master Builder in 2003. Being a guitarist and understanding what a great guitar should look, feel and sound like has always been a top priority for him. Custom guitars are his passion, and he is the man behind several famous Custom Shop instruments, including the replica of Stevie Ray Vaughan’s famous “Number One” Stratocaster guitar, the Jeff Beck Esquire Relic (as used with the Yardbirds), the replica of Yngwie Malmsteen’s famous “Duck” Stratocaster, the John Mayer Limited Edition Black 1 Stratocaster, And most recently The Famed limited Edition Gary Moore 1961 Fiesta Red Stratocaster as well as countless others


sounds like someone who has worked their way up the ladder to me!...

please feel free to put me in my place but had anyone heard of the masterbuilders until fender named them?

again, not knocking the builders... but... deffo marketing bollox imo.

poopot

Look at the Abby pups.

she worked at the fender factory... she wound pickups... the same as any number of other workers at the fender factory...

are we really thinking she had magic fingers that imparted a mystical mojo and made her pickups sound better than any number of identical pickup winders?

Marketing hype at its finest!...

darthed1981

Anything that costs more than the basic price of a decent giggable-out-of-the-box guitar, like a Mexi Fender, ESP LTD, Mid-range Ibanez etc. is partly or wholly marketing bollocks, we all know this I think.

Also, people do aspire to own really expensive things, that are exclusive purely due to price (Rolexes, Aston Martins) way out of proportion to the quality of the product, or it's true cost of manufacture.  Masterbuilt Fenders are just another example of this.

Personally, if someone has done well enough to pay 6k for a guitar thats basically the same as one costing 500 quid, well fair play chaps.  It isn't fair to call you a mug, but then it's also not fair for you to run around moaning when people DO call you a mug...

Let's face it TFB has got a good mix of people from young-uns starting out in bands with £200 guitars to boomer collectors who wind down from the law or accountancy practise by spending their vast disposable income.  We should all try to be a broad church as raging against the existence of consumer capitalism is not why we are here.

Sassafras

TBH how a guitar looks comes fairly low on my list of priorities.
How it sounds and plays is top of the list.

dazzajl

darthed1981 said:

...........

Let's face it TFB has got a good mix of people from young-uns starting out in bands with £200 guitars to boomer collectors who wind down from the law or accountancy practise by spending their vast disposable income.  We should all try to be a broad church as raging against the existence of consumer capitalism is not why we are here.

Stands up and doffs cap. 

chris78

I’ve tried to stay clear of this thread, because it was obvious how it was going to go. I’ve owned both masterbuilt and a number of cs guitars.

Clearly there are some people with an agenda here. Some people can’t afford the custom shop. Hard luck guys, you’re missing out. I can’t afford a Ferrari either, but it doesn’t mean I’ve got any inverted snobbery about them. 

The op found something that was interesting with similar wear on guitars. Good point. Where’s its gone stupid is starting to call the whole thing snake oil. I’m calling bullshit on that, and not to justify my purchases because I don’t currently own a masterbuilt guitar. Rather than jumping on some kind of bandwagon, maybe some of the people here making wild assumptions would like to talk to Fender and the custom shop about different levels so they can make an informed choice. 

What they’ll find out is that as you move up the levels, you may not be guaranteed a better guitar, but you are getting better components and builders for your money. Sometimes these don’t add up to a better guitar as guitar building isn’t an exact science, but the fact is, the master builders get the first choice of all the wood fender buy. The custom shop next etc etc. Whether wood adds up to a better guitar is another debate, but that’s what you’re getting. Pickup wise, you’re getting handwound pickups mainly by people fender believe are good at this stuff. Do some of our own members wind pickups as well or better? Yup, but these guys are who fender believes are the best that they have working for them. Can you get a guitar built to your specs from fender anywhere other than the custom shop? Nope. That may not matter to you, but to me, the right neck, the right frets etc make a difference. I don’t necessarily want 9.5 radius and vintage tall frets. Finally, the staff themselves are picked from the main factory because they are the best at what they do. That means the guy who is best at fretwork gets promoted to the custom shop. The guy best at neck sanding gets promoted etc. Can other makers be equally skilled? Clearly, but fender are saying these are the best people we have.

You’re always going to pay more for a brand. I pay too much for apple products even though there are others better and cheaper. I trust them, I like their stuff and I work hard to buy it, same as I work hard to buy a cs guitar that makes me happy.

Theres a few people who need to wind their necks back in, buy what makes them happy and inspires them to play music and be a little less jealous of people like Wayne and Brad who have fabulous collections and like high end and masterbuilt guitars. I personally am not going to pay £7k for any guitar and I don’t like the extreme relics, but I’m sure as heck not going to judge a guitar I haven’t played. A couple of the masterbuilts I’ve had and played have been exceptional, I’m just not good enough to justify that kind of money for a guitar and I’d rather have 2 outstanding guitars than 1 exceptional one.

poopot

Again... this wasn’t a thread to knock what folk spend their money on or how much disposable income someone has... what folk earn and spend their money on is their own business...

This wasn’t a thread to knock relics either... you either love em or hate them... that’s your own business...

this thread was to highlight that the masterbuilt fenders seem to be “paint by numbers” and not a unique instrument...

Would be interesting to hear from @MattFGBI on all of this!...

Winny_Pooh

chris78 said:

I’ve tried to stay clear of this thread, because it was obvious how it was going to go. I’ve owned both masterbuilt and a number of cs guitars.

Clearly there are some people with an agenda here. Some people can’t afford the custom shop. Hard luck guys, you’re missing out. I can’t afford a Ferrari either, but it doesn’t mean I’ve got any inverted snobbery about them. 

The op found something that was interesting with similar wear on guitars. Good point. Where’s its gone stupid is starting to call the whole thing snake oil. I’m calling bullshit on that, and not to justify my purchases because I don’t currently own a masterbuilt guitar. Rather than jumping on some kind of bandwagon, maybe some of the people here making wild assumptions would like to talk to Fender and the custom shop about different levels so they can make an informed choice. 

What they’ll find out is that as you move up the levels, you may not be guaranteed a better guitar, but you are getting better components and builders for your money. Sometimes these don’t add up to a better guitar as guitar building isn’t an exact science, but the fact is, the master builders get the first choice of all the wood fender buy. The custom shop next etc etc. Whether wood adds up to a better guitar is another debate, but that’s what you’re getting. Pickup wise, you’re getting handwound pickups mainly by people fender believe are good at this stuff. Do some of our own members wind pickups as well or better? Yup, but these guys are who fender believes are the best that they have working for them. Can you get a guitar built to your specs from fender anywhere other than the custom shop? Nope. That may not matter to you, but to me, the right neck, the right frets etc make a difference. I don’t necessarily want 9.5 radius and vintage tall frets. Finally, the staff themselves are picked from the main factory because they are the best at what they do. That means the guy who is best at fretwork gets promoted to the custom shop. The guy best at neck sanding gets promoted etc. Can other makers be equally skilled? Clearly, but fender are saying these are the best people we have.

You’re always going to pay more for a brand. I pay too much for apple products even though there are others better and cheaper. I trust them, I like their stuff and I work hard to buy it, same as I work hard to buy a cs guitar that makes me happy.

Theres a few people who need to wind their necks back in, buy what makes them happy and inspires them to play music and be a little less jealous of people like Wayne and Brad who have fabulous collections and like high end and masterbuilt guitars. I personally am not going to pay £7k for any guitar and I don’t like the extreme relics, but I’m sure as heck not going to judge a guitar I haven’t played. A couple of the masterbuilts I’ve had and played have been exceptional, I’m just not good enough to justify that kind of money for a guitar and I’d rather have 2 outstanding guitars than 1 exceptional one.

I think all of this has been said already in one way or another