“Masterbuilt” or “guitar by stencil”...

lysander

How many guitars does each master builder build a year ?

I think that number should say more than enough about whether folk can expect it to be a unique instrument with some skilled handcrafted work on it or not.

TINMAN82

This started as an interesting thread with a sharp and relevant observation. Predictably, it’s degenerated into one of these overly long TFB “discussions” that make you question why you bother with the forum.

dazzajl

We have indeed been around a lot of the same angles on guitars but you don’t have to read it. 

One that interests me that we haven’t covered is how Fender would feel/what they would do if someone else copied this template and stated to making guitars with it? 

p90fool

Here we go with the "you're just jealous and can't afford it" bollocks again. 

I've recently sold a 1963 Strat and a 1980 Wal Custom fretless bass (which fetched more than the Strat) and could've just gone and bought a couple of brand new Masterboltedtogether Fenders. 

I have absolutely no axe to grind with people for whom that is an ambition, who every time they pick up their guitar it makes them smile and was all worth it, but the price is not the reason I don't own one, the value is. 

There's a lot of marketing crap around guitars, most especially from giant corporate "custom shops", but there are also significant intangibles around musical instruments and consequently times when something just grabs you, regardless of price, value or logic. 

I know I'm contradicting myself here, but there's room for all outlooks. 

Sassafras

If you've just spent £6k on a guitar, you're more likely to think it's a superior instrument. You're unlikely to wish you'd bought a Squier instead.

Dan_Halen

‘So, does Todd Krause actually build a ‘Todd Krause Masterbuilt’?’

’SHUT UP POOR PERSON AND WIND YOUR NECK IN’

Love the internet :-)

Lewy

Winny_Pooh said:

chris78 said:

I’ve tried to stay clear of this thread, because it was obvious how it was going to go. I’ve owned both masterbuilt and a number of cs guitars.

Clearly there are some people with an agenda here. Some people can’t afford the custom shop. Hard luck guys, you’re missing out. I can’t afford a Ferrari either, but it doesn’t mean I’ve got any inverted snobbery about them. 

The op found something that was interesting with similar wear on guitars. Good point. Where’s its gone stupid is starting to call the whole thing snake oil. I’m calling bullshit on that, and not to justify my purchases because I don’t currently own a masterbuilt guitar. Rather than jumping on some kind of bandwagon, maybe some of the people here making wild assumptions would like to talk to Fender and the custom shop about different levels so they can make an informed choice. 

What they’ll find out is that as you move up the levels, you may not be guaranteed a better guitar, but you are getting better components and builders for your money. Sometimes these don’t add up to a better guitar as guitar building isn’t an exact science, but the fact is, the master builders get the first choice of all the wood fender buy. The custom shop next etc etc. Whether wood adds up to a better guitar is another debate, but that’s what you’re getting. Pickup wise, you’re getting handwound pickups mainly by people fender believe are good at this stuff. Do some of our own members wind pickups as well or better? Yup, but these guys are who fender believes are the best that they have working for them. Can you get a guitar built to your specs from fender anywhere other than the custom shop? Nope. That may not matter to you, but to me, the right neck, the right frets etc make a difference. I don’t necessarily want 9.5 radius and vintage tall frets. Finally, the staff themselves are picked from the main factory because they are the best at what they do. That means the guy who is best at fretwork gets promoted to the custom shop. The guy best at neck sanding gets promoted etc. Can other makers be equally skilled? Clearly, but fender are saying these are the best people we have.

You’re always going to pay more for a brand. I pay too much for apple products even though there are others better and cheaper. I trust them, I like their stuff and I work hard to buy it, same as I work hard to buy a cs guitar that makes me happy.

Theres a few people who need to wind their necks back in, buy what makes them happy and inspires them to play music and be a little less jealous of people like Wayne and Brad who have fabulous collections and like high end and masterbuilt guitars. I personally am not going to pay £7k for any guitar and I don’t like the extreme relics, but I’m sure as heck not going to judge a guitar I haven’t played. A couple of the masterbuilts I’ve had and played have been exceptional, I’m just not good enough to justify that kind of money for a guitar and I’d rather have 2 outstanding guitars than 1 exceptional one.

I think all of this has been said already in one way or another 

So has that.

soma1975

poopot said:

Look at the Abby pups.

she worked at the fender factory... she wound pickups... the same as any number of other workers at the fender factory...

are we really thinking she had magic fingers that imparted a mystical mojo and made her pickups sound better than any number of identical pickup winders?

Marketing hype at its finest!...

Thing that made me laugh is how since she retired they started to build up her replacement as the next great thing. 

It's all bollocks. Absolute bollocks. While one pickup winder's ear and consistency and the base tone they strive for might be subjectively better than another's there's no magic in a pickup past the selection of components and how it is wound. 

It's not like Abby decided to start going off list and winding custom fancypants pickups of her own design.

As for the rest of it, let other people enjoy things. But no denying my impression of 'masterbuilt' might not be be exactly what Fender consider it to be. 

bgmartinsbridge

The one that amuses me is, has anyone heard of John Cruz or Todd Krause.

Well, I guess, any artist who has bought or been given a guitar by Fender will have. 
Mark Knopfler, Eric Clapton to name a couple. 

Totally agree there is an element of marketing BS in all companies and Fender. 


As I said I don't agree with templates and masterbuilds should be individual guitars imo. 

RaymondLin

Teflon said:

The blut

Dan_Halen said:

Anyone actually got the official marketing gumf that Fender put out? Surely it must be written down somewhere categorically what you get when you go masterbuilt?

The blurb on the Fender website states: " They’ll walk you through everything—body design, neck shape, tonewoods, pickups, hardware and more—to give you the look, feel and sound that you’re searching for. From start to finish the Master Builder will personally ensure that each guitar is built with the highest possible quality and to your exact specifications. "

This suggest to me that they get involved with the customer at the design stage, and then supervise the build to ensure quality is maintained. Note, it specifically states "......... the Master Builder will personally ensure that each guitar is built with the highest possible quality and to your exact specifications." It doesn't state that they build the instrument themselves (though for all I know, they may well do).  

Cliff

It sounds like you are paying for John Cruz as the QC guy in the end.dazzajl said:

Kittyfrisk said:

@dazzajl ;;;  & @lysander ;;;
I agree with your points relating to the 'real' playability & 'worth' of any good, well set up guitar, regardless of it's provenance  versus it's perceived value on the 'grown up' collector market.
 Be careful though, you may end up on the list of "idiots" to be ridiculed for such heresy/naivety.
On the plus side, don't worry, there are loads of us there already, still having real fun with our 'cheap' wannabe guitars & laughing like drains      

If you've got me figured, you'll know I've got time for everything and as long as people are happy, it's all good.

I used to hang out on a photography forum, was a lot like this place for a while. Then one day a chap posted very proudly to say he'd just bought himself a Leica. A digital affair that was also available as a Panasonic branded version for about a third of the price. He told the tale of how he'd always wanted to own a Leica since he was a boy and now in his retirement, he'd been able to get his hands on one. He told of how it had reignited his passion for taking photos and how he was out walking in the local countryside almost everyday since buying it. A completely uplifting and joyous story.

But instead of folks posting to congratulate him or pass a kind comment on the pics he posted, they rounded on like a mob trying to get him to admit that he'd been an idiot for not getting the much cheaper Panasonic version. They totally missed the point that he'd fulfilled a dream and spent his money on something that made him very happy. At least until those idiots ruined that for him.  

The mindset with photography is hertigage and brand is very niche.  95% of people don't know the history of Leica, 99% of never seen one in person, 99.9999999999999% never held one in person.

That and also metal and silicon isn't like wood, you don't get more experience to get better at picking a better piece of wood.  The whole process is built on an assembly line and mostly by robots so the crux of it, in terms of manufacturing is just branding as the IQ is widely accepted to be average.

The aspect of bucket list is strange to most photographer hobbyist.  There are mainly 2 kinds, those who are gear nerds and those who just care about the photo.  Neither will like Leica because if you are a gear nerd you want best bang for buck, best DXO marks - Zeiss Otus, Sony sensors etc.  Those who care about the final photo won't care what gear you shoot.  So its hard to grasp the idea that a Leica is a camera either camp will ever consider.  To both, it's just a badge.

I know people who have Leicas, do I think their images are better than those who shoot with Nikon/Canon/Sony?  No.  But do I ask them why they buy it and tell them they should have bought a Panasonic instead? No.  It's their money.  It would be like telling a Ferrari owner he should have bought a Yaris.  People who buy Leicas don't think about IQ, spec or even the photo, they just want a Leica.

The difference here between Leica and Fender Masterbuilt is that Leica don't pretend they have better IQ or anything like that over the other brand, they don't name specific engineers as their star man and put it on the sticker.  Fender do.

soma1975

bgmartinsbridge said:

The one that amuses me is, has anyone heard of John Cruz or Todd Krause.

Well, I guess, any artist who has bought or been given a guitar by Fender will have. 
Mark Knopfler, Eric Clapton to name a couple. 

Totally agree there is an element of marketing BS in all companies and Fender. 


As I said I don't agree with templates and masterbuilds should be individual guitars imo. 

Ron Thorn the new guy is at least very well known and respected before he joined Fender. 

Adey

TINMAN82 said:

This started as an interesting thread with a sharp and relevant observation. Predictably, it’s degenerated into one of these overly long TFB “discussions” that make you question why you bother with the forum.

Maybe all topics should be limited to 5 pages?

After 2 pages most discussions have gone completely off topic, and end up as a slanging match anyway...

Philly_Q

Adey said:

TINMAN82 said:

This started as an interesting thread with a sharp and relevant observation. Predictably, it’s degenerated into one of these overly long TFB “discussions” that make you question why you bother with the forum.

Maybe all topics should be limited to 5 pages?

After 2 pages most discussions have gone completely off topic, and end up as a slanging match anyway...

OK, but could we make an exception if @siraxeman ever comes back and starts another flat earth thread?

terada

Philly_Q said:

Adey said:

TINMAN82 said:

This started as an interesting thread with a sharp and relevant observation. Predictably, it’s degenerated into one of these overly long TFB “discussions” that make you question why you bother with the forum.

Maybe all topics should be limited to 5 pages?

After 2 pages most discussions have gone completely off topic, and end up as a slanging match anyway...

OK, but could we make an exception if @siraxeman ever comes back and starts another flat earth thread?

I second this comment

Lewy

Dan_Halen said:

‘So, does Todd Krause actually build a ‘Todd Krause Masterbuilt’?’

’SHUT UP POOR PERSON AND WIND YOUR NECK IN’

Love the internet :-)

Although if you take the same summary approach from a different perspective you also get:

'Hey look, they use stencils to relic Masterbuilt guitars'

'WHAT?? You mean the Masterbuilders just find discarded Squier parts in the bin, wipe the baked beans off, and then watch someone else putting them together and Fender sell them for £6k?? You'd have to be a right mug to buy one of them'

ToneControl

Sassafras said:

I'm surprised at how many people have owned dozens of masterbuilts and teambuilts. Weren't any of them good enough to keep?

If I'd owned that many and still not been satisfied, I'd be trying a different design or manufacturer instead

dazzajl

ToneControl said:

Sassafras said:

I'm surprised at how many people have owned dozens of masterbuilts and teambuilts. Weren't any of them good enough to keep?

I've I'd owned that many and still not been satisfied, I'd be trying a different design or manufacturer instead

Players don’t really get collectors, collectors don’t get players. It’s not going to change any time soon 

Lewy

ToneControl said:

Sassafras said:

I'm surprised at how many people have owned dozens of masterbuilts and teambuilts. Weren't any of them good enough to keep?

I've I'd owned that many and still not been satisfied, I'd be trying a different design or manufacturer instead

Not everyone sees guitars as needing to be "the one" that you keep forever. They can be the right tool for where you are at musically now but maybe not tomorrow, or temporary providers of inspiration, or curiosities, or just a new look you're experimenting with. I don't think it necessarily follows that that is an indicator of the quality of the instrument at all.

And it definitely doesn't follow that if you chop and change instruments you are some sort of dandy "collector" and not a "player"

Sassafras

I find all this jealousy absolutely sickening.

Dan_Halen

Lewy said:

Dan_Halen said:

‘So, does Todd Krause actually build a ‘Todd Krause Masterbuilt’?’

’SHUT UP POOR PERSON AND WIND YOUR NECK IN’

Love the internet :-)

Although if you take the same summary approach from a different perspective you also get:

'Hey look, they use stencils to relic Masterbuilt guitars'

'WHAT?? You mean the Masterbuilders just find discarded Squier parts in the bin, wipe the baked beans off, and then watch someone else putting them together and Fender sell them for £6k?? You'd have to be a right mug to buy one of them'

Jesus wept. All I want to know is do the Masterbuilders actually build the bloody things. You don’t seem to know either so maybe calm down sweetheart.