“Masterbuilt” or “guitar by stencil”...

bgmartinsbridge

@Dan_Halen ;;;;;

Oh dear, is that a David Cameron quote - "sweetheart".

Let's not lower the tone totally lol :-) 



I believe the answer is yes, they select the parts via a parts list, put them together and set up the guitar. 

I'll see if I can find a video for you, I've seen one on YouTube a while back. Just added it below. 

ToneControl

Lewy said:

ToneControl said:

Sassafras said:

I'm surprised at how many people have owned dozens of masterbuilts and teambuilts. Weren't any of them good enough to keep?

I've I'd owned that many and still not been satisfied, I'd be trying a different design or manufacturer instead

Not everyone sees guitars as needing to be "the one" that you keep forever. They can be the right tool for where you are at musically now but maybe not tomorrow, or temporary providers of inspiration, or curiosities, or just a new look you're experimenting with. I don't think it necessarily follows that that is an indicator of the quality of the instrument at all.

And it definitely doesn't follow that if you chop and change instruments you are some sort of dandy "collector" and not a "player"

I'm meaning that a Fender strat is a CNC-machined collection of parts, assembled and fine tuned by hand, if I'd owned 10 or 20 and not found a keeper, I'd be looking at Suhr, Anderson, or a build from a local luthier

My reality-check for this subject is that I reckon a luthier living in the UK or US should be able to make a top-class strat-type guitar for £2500, even without CNC or parts already made by others. I'd say for acoustics we'd be up to £4000-£5000. Prices beyond that are down to branding/celeb status/rarity or extra cost features like pricey woods, geometries or custom hardware.

Paying more for that for a Fender-brand electric is a bit of a paradox for me: if it's a custom-model you'd be saying you want something special and individual, yet using nearly exactly the same design and spec as everyone else, with components from the Fender production line. If it's based on celeb-status of Fender staff, why not just go to independent luthiers instead?  How can it be "a Fender" and "different to a Fender"?

I can see why each brand can have a custom shop, or a higher-quality line of guitars. What I don't get is why the other workers aren't retrained to adopt the techniques of the "master builders", so that all Fender guitars are made as good

Fender make production-line guitars, if BMW started offering "masterbuilt" versions of their cars, that were tuned better or drove more accurately or more comfortably, because of the way they'd been assembled, there would be lawsuits I think. 
The M-sports add-ons (or AMG for Merc) change the specs, and enhanced the measurable performance.

What are the Fender masterbuilders doing beyond an extra level of QA and a top-level luthier setup? (Ignoring the relic'ing)

bgmartinsbridge

Here you go - Paul Waller building a strat.

Looks end to end to me from selecting the wood to doing the physical relic. 

StuartMac290

bgmartinsbridge said:

@Dan_Halen ;;;;;

Oh dear, is that a David Cameron quote - "sweetheart".

Let's not lower the tone totally lol :-) 



I believe the answer is yes, they select the parts via a parts list, put them together and set up the guitar. 

I'll see if I can find a video for you, I've seen one on YouTube a while back. Just added it below. 

Do they hand-shape the necks?

Dan_Halen

bgmartinsbridge said:

@Dan_Halen ;;;;

Oh dear, is that a David Cameron quote - "sweetheart".

Let's not lower the tone totally lol :-) 



I believe the answer is yes, they select the parts via a parts list, put them together and set up the guitar. 

I'll see if I can find a video for you, I've seen one on YouTube a while back. 

Thanks for the rational response :-)

I’m just wasn’t keen on being belittled for asking a simple yes or no question.

Like I said earlier, if they do actually build the thing then I get the price tag. It just seems odd in that case that fender choose to not categorically state it when it’s the obvious selling point.

bgmartinsbridge

@Dan_Halen I just took the mick because you took the mick. A bit of fun. 

More importantly I posted a video for you. 



OK - I posted a pic from the video - give me two mins. 

That answers your questions, I think and it's an interesting watch. 

Lewy

ToneControl said:

Lewy said:

ToneControl said:

Sassafras said:

I'm surprised at how many people have owned dozens of masterbuilts and teambuilts. Weren't any of them good enough to keep?

I've I'd owned that many and still not been satisfied, I'd be trying a different design or manufacturer instead

Not everyone sees guitars as needing to be "the one" that you keep forever. They can be the right tool for where you are at musically now but maybe not tomorrow, or temporary providers of inspiration, or curiosities, or just a new look you're experimenting with. I don't think it necessarily follows that that is an indicator of the quality of the instrument at all.

And it definitely doesn't follow that if you chop and change instruments you are some sort of dandy "collector" and not a "player"

I'm meaning that a Fender strat is a CNC-machined collection of parts, assembled and fine tuned by hand, if I'd owned 10 or 20 and not found a keeper, I'd be looking at Suhr, Anderson, or a build from a local luthier

My reality-check for this subject is that I reckon a luthier living in the UK or US should be able to make a top-class strat-type guitar for £2500, even without CNC or parts already made by others. I'd say for acoustics we'd be up to £4000-£5000. Prices beyond that are down to branding/celeb status/rarity or extra cost features like pricey woods, geometries or custom hardware.

Paying more for that for a Fender-brand electric is a bit of a paradox for me: if it's a custom-model you'd be saying you want something special and individual, yet using nearly exactly the same design and spec as everyone else, with components from the Fender production line. If it's based on celeb-status of Fender staff, why not just go to independent luthiers instead?  How can it be "a Fender" and "different to a Fender"?

I can see why each brand can have a custom shop, or a higher-quality line of guitars. What I don't get is why the other workers aren't retrained to adopt the techniques of the "master builders", so that all Fender guitars are made as good

Fender make production-line guitars, if BMW started offering "masterbuilt" versions of their cars, that were tuned better or drove more accurately or more comfortably, because of the way they'd been assembled, there would be lawsuits I think. 
The M-sports add-ons (or AMG for Merc) change the specs, and enhanced the measurable performance.

What are the Fender masterbuilders doing beyond an extra level of QA and a top-level luthier setup? (Ignoring the relic'ing)

I agree with all of that in those cases where dissatisfaction with the product it the driving force behind changing. I just don't think that's the case all the time. I think I've owned maybe 60 guitars in my life. I have 7 now so obviously there's been a lot of churn and in that number there have been a LOT of Strats and Teles. There's only been one that was a genuine disappointment on quality grounds (FWIW a Classic series 50s Tele that was so overfinished I just didn't want to pick it up any more and which I ended up giving to a friend). Every other trade or sale has been because I just felt like a change. If I funds and space were no object I'd probably still have all of them. I don't think I'm alone in that. 

When it comes to manufacturers having Custom Shops, whilst I'm sure they first came into being to offer non-standard specs, I think most people now accept that they just as much fulfil the function of making guitars using methods that may not be economical for production instruments. For acoustics, think hide glue, tap tuning etc. You wouldn't train production line members to do those things because you'd never have them use those techniques on a production line. You could get a master luthier to give lessons of fret work (for all I know, that does happen) but if you're giving the production line worker a 5th of the time to do the work than the custom shop builder might take, it's probably a marginal benefit. 

StuartMac290

bgmartinsbridge said:

@Dan_Halen I just took the mick because you took the mick. A bit of fun. 

More importantly I posted a video for you. 



OK - I posted a pic from the video - give me two mins. 

That answers your questions, I think and it's an interesting watch. 

Hang on, that video STARTS with a completed neck and finished body!

Sassafras

Lewy said:

I agree with all of that in those cases where dissatisfaction with the product it the driving force behind changing. I just don't think that's the case all the time. I think I've owned maybe 60 guitars in my life. I have 7 now so obviously there's been a lot of churn and in that number there have been a LOT of Strats and Teles. There's only been one that was a genuine disappointment on quality grounds (FWIW a Classic series 50s Tele that was so overfinished I just didn't want to pick it up any more and which I ended up giving to a friend). Every other trade or sale has been because I just felt like a change. If I funds and space were no object I'd probably still have all of them. I don't think I'm alone in that. 

Can I be your friend too?

Sassafras

StuartMac290 said:

bgmartinsbridge said:

@Dan_Halen I just took the mick because you took the mick. A bit of fun. 

More importantly I posted a video for you. 



OK - I posted a pic from the video - give me two mins. 

That answers your questions, I think and it's an interesting watch. 

Hang on, that video STARTS with a completed neck and finished body!

And he didn't wash his hands after going to the toilet.
I don't want a piss stained guitar at ANY price.

Lewy

Dan_Halen said:

bgmartinsbridge said:

@Dan_Halen ;;;;

Oh dear, is that a David Cameron quote - "sweetheart".

Let's not lower the tone totally lol :-) 



I believe the answer is yes, they select the parts via a parts list, put them together and set up the guitar. 

I'll see if I can find a video for you, I've seen one on YouTube a while back. 

Thanks for the rational response :-)

I’m just wasn’t keen on being belittled for asking a simple yes or no question.

Like I said earlier, if they do actually build the thing then I get the price tag. It just seems odd in that case that fender choose to not categorically state it when it’s the obvious selling point.

To be clear, I was not trying to belittle you. I read your post as being a deliberately humorous oversimplification of the way this thread has developed, and was just responding with a similar one from a different perspective. I apologise if my post came across as mocking a genuine question.

Lewy

Sassafras said:

Lewy said:

I agree with all of that in those cases where dissatisfaction with the product it the driving force behind changing. I just don't think that's the case all the time. I think I've owned maybe 60 guitars in my life. I have 7 now so obviously there's been a lot of churn and in that number there have been a LOT of Strats and Teles. There's only been one that was a genuine disappointment on quality grounds (FWIW a Classic series 50s Tele that was so overfinished I just didn't want to pick it up any more and which I ended up giving to a friend). Every other trade or sale has been because I just felt like a change. If I funds and space were no object I'd probably still have all of them. I don't think I'm alone in that. 

Can I be your friend too?

I don't know...how do you feel about religion, vaccines and Brexit?

bgmartinsbridge

@StuartMac290 - And the piece of wood he selected for the body at 52 seconds didn't come from a tree he planted. How very dare him :-) 

Dan_Halen

Fair play Lewy and bgmartinsbridge, cheers. Apologies for coming on a bit strong.

Lewy

How much does everyone in that Custom Shop video look like they'd really prefer the guy making the video to f**k off forever…..?

SteveRobinson

RaymondLin said:

The mindset with photography is hertigage and brand is very niche.  95% of people don't know the history of Leica, 99% of never seen one in person, 99.9999999999999% never held one in person.

Point of order, with "only" 7.5 billion people on the planet, that's literally everyone. 

crunchman

ToneControl said:

Lewy said:

ToneControl said:

Sassafras said:

I'm surprised at how many people have owned dozens of masterbuilts and teambuilts. Weren't any of them good enough to keep?

I've I'd owned that many and still not been satisfied, I'd be trying a different design or manufacturer instead

Not everyone sees guitars as needing to be "the one" that you keep forever. They can be the right tool for where you are at musically now but maybe not tomorrow, or temporary providers of inspiration, or curiosities, or just a new look you're experimenting with. I don't think it necessarily follows that that is an indicator of the quality of the instrument at all.

And it definitely doesn't follow that if you chop and change instruments you are some sort of dandy "collector" and not a "player"

I'm meaning that a Fender strat is a CNC-machined collection of parts, assembled and fine tuned by hand, if I'd owned 10 or 20 and not found a keeper, I'd be looking at Suhr, Anderson, or a build from a local luthier

My reality-check for this subject is that I reckon a luthier living in the UK or US should be able to make a top-class strat-type guitar for £2500, even without CNC or parts already made by others. I'd say for acoustics we'd be up to £4000-£5000. Prices beyond that are down to branding/celeb status/rarity or extra cost features like pricey woods, geometries or custom hardware.

Paying more for that for a Fender-brand electric is a bit of a paradox for me: if it's a custom-model you'd be saying you want something special and individual, yet using nearly exactly the same design and spec as everyone else, with components from the Fender production line. If it's based on celeb-status of Fender staff, why not just go to independent luthiers instead?  How can it be "a Fender" and "different to a Fender"?

I can see why each brand can have a custom shop, or a higher-quality line of guitars. What I don't get is why the other workers aren't retrained to adopt the techniques of the "master builders", so that all Fender guitars are made as good

Fender make production-line guitars, if BMW started offering "masterbuilt" versions of their cars, that were tuned better or drove more accurately or more comfortably, because of the way they'd been assembled, there would be lawsuits I think. 
The M-sports add-ons (or AMG for Merc) change the specs, and enhanced the measurable performance.

What are the Fender masterbuilders doing beyond an extra level of QA and a top-level luthier setup? (Ignoring the relic'ing)

I agree with a lot of what you say, but the BNW analogy doesn't work.  The raw materials for the BMW would be the same.

On a guitar, the wood does make a difference, and the Custom Shop is going to be made from good wood much more consistently than the factory guitars are.  The pickups are better, and there is also a bit more time spend on the fettling.

There are also spec differences to think of.  Custom Shop are generally nitro finished, where most of the factory guitars aren't.

If you go into a shop with big selection, and pick a Custom Shop guitar and a Mexican Classic at random, then 9 times of out 10, the CS guitar will be better. On the other hand, if you go through all the guitars, and pick the best of the Mexican guitars, it may well be better than a handful of the CS guitars.

GoldenEraGuitars

crunchman said:

ToneControl said:

Lewy said:

ToneControl said:

Sassafras said:

I'm surprised at how many people have owned dozens of masterbuilts and teambuilts. Weren't any of them good enough to keep?

I've I'd owned that many and still not been satisfied, I'd be trying a different design or manufacturer instead

Not everyone sees guitars as needing to be "the one" that you keep forever. They can be the right tool for where you are at musically now but maybe not tomorrow, or temporary providers of inspiration, or curiosities, or just a new look you're experimenting with. I don't think it necessarily follows that that is an indicator of the quality of the instrument at all.

And it definitely doesn't follow that if you chop and change instruments you are some sort of dandy "collector" and not a "player"

I'm meaning that a Fender strat is a CNC-machined collection of parts, assembled and fine tuned by hand, if I'd owned 10 or 20 and not found a keeper, I'd be looking at Suhr, Anderson, or a build from a local luthier

My reality-check for this subject is that I reckon a luthier living in the UK or US should be able to make a top-class strat-type guitar for £2500, even without CNC or parts already made by others. I'd say for acoustics we'd be up to £4000-£5000. Prices beyond that are down to branding/celeb status/rarity or extra cost features like pricey woods, geometries or custom hardware.

Paying more for that for a Fender-brand electric is a bit of a paradox for me: if it's a custom-model you'd be saying you want something special and individual, yet using nearly exactly the same design and spec as everyone else, with components from the Fender production line. If it's based on celeb-status of Fender staff, why not just go to independent luthiers instead?  How can it be "a Fender" and "different to a Fender"?

I can see why each brand can have a custom shop, or a higher-quality line of guitars. What I don't get is why the other workers aren't retrained to adopt the techniques of the "master builders", so that all Fender guitars are made as good

Fender make production-line guitars, if BMW started offering "masterbuilt" versions of their cars, that were tuned better or drove more accurately or more comfortably, because of the way they'd been assembled, there would be lawsuits I think. 
The M-sports add-ons (or AMG for Merc) change the specs, and enhanced the measurable performance.

What are the Fender masterbuilders doing beyond an extra level of QA and a top-level luthier setup? (Ignoring the relic'ing)

I agree with a lot of what you say, but the BNW analogy doesn't work.  The raw materials for the BMW would be the same.

On a guitar, the wood does make a difference, and the Custom Shop is going to be made from good wood much more consistently than the factory guitars are.  The pickups are better, and there is also a bit more time spend on the fettling.

There are also spec differences to think of.  Custom Shop are generally nitro finished, where most of the factory guitars aren't.

If you go into a shop with big selection, and pick a Custom Shop guitar and a Mexican Classic at random, then 9 times of out 10, the CS guitar will be better. On the other hand, if you go through all the guitars, and pick the best of the Mexican guitars, it may well be better than a handful of the CS guitars.

Uh oh.... TONEWOOD!!!

Another tangent on the thread from hell. 

The only difference in the “factory” alder/ash vs the CS selection is the amount of glue between the joins in the bodies And for the record, I’ve stripped many 3+ piece CS bodies for refinishing. Some of the nicest pieces have been Mexican made. 

Adey

Adey said:

TINMAN82 said:

This started as an interesting thread with a sharp and relevant observation. Predictably, it’s degenerated into one of these overly long TFB “discussions” that make you question why you bother with the forum.

Maybe all topics should be limited to 5 pages?

After 2 pages most discussions have gone completely off topic, and end up as a slanging match anyway...

See...

SteveRobinson

ToneControl said:

if BMW started offering "masterbuilt" versions of their cars, that were tuned better or drove more accurately or more comfortably, because of the way they'd been assembled, there would be lawsuits I think. 

Isn't Alpina the BMW equivalent?