Alcohol and playing

professorben

octatonic said:

I don't see anyone getting worked up.
It is a peaceful discussion.

So close.....

PolarityMan

FWIW everything that I follow, listen to and read echoes Octatonic's observations. there certainly seems to be far less tolerance of people being intoxicated while working in the studio or playing live.

I suspect that shrinking budgets might be a factor on the studio side as hardly anyone can afford to book out months of studio time to get an album done any  more so having to say waste a morning oif a session to cope with substance related drama becomes much more serious. 

octatonic

PolarityMan said:

FWIW everything that I follow, listen to and read echoes Octatonic's observations. there certainly seems to be far less tolerance of people being intoxicated while working in the studio or playing live.

I suspect that shrinking budgets might be a factor on the studio side as hardly anyone can afford to book out months of studio time to get an album done any  more so having to say waste a morning oif a session to cope with substance related drama becomes much more serious. 

Yes, pretty much.
People want to work with reliable people and have an easy life- doing music is hard enough without extra hassle.
People largely don't care what others do in their private lives though.
I've noticed the younger generation tend to be a bit cleaner living that us Gen X'ers.
It is a generalisation of course.

thegummy

PolarityMan said:

FWIW everything that I follow, listen to and read echoes Octatonic's observations. there certainly seems to be far less tolerance of people being intoxicated while working in the studio or playing live.

I suspect that shrinking budgets might be a factor on the studio side as hardly anyone can afford to book out months of studio time to get an album done any  more so having to say waste a morning oif a session to cope with substance related drama becomes much more serious. 

When you say "intoxicated" then definitely, if they're drunk or on certain drugs the the point that other people can tell they're acting differently then it's understandable. (Though apparently Jamerson used to be too drunk to stand up and still played bass better than anyone. Think he's a special case.)

But the "zero tolerance" idea isn't the reality. Just like you wouldn't know if someone's been using caffeine that day, you wouldn't know if someone who's used to smoking weed has smoked a little before a gig or session. It's not like in a sitcom or when someone tries it for the first time and can't stop laughing till they're sick.

So I have to wonder if the reason your experience tells you what you say is that you've never played with anyone who was noticeably intoxicated so assumed they hadn't taken anything but that doesn't mean they hadn't.

Won't mention any current day names but I know and know of great players, names and non-names, who do it, I'm not just guessing that they do or theorizing they'd still be able to play well.

PolarityMan

thegummy said:

PolarityMan said:

FWIW everything that I follow, listen to and read echoes Octatonic's observations. there certainly seems to be far less tolerance of people being intoxicated while working in the studio or playing live.

I suspect that shrinking budgets might be a factor on the studio side as hardly anyone can afford to book out months of studio time to get an album done any  more so having to say waste a morning oif a session to cope with substance related drama becomes much more serious. 

When you say "intoxicated" then definitely, if they're drunk or on certain drugs the the point that other people can tell they're acting differently then it's understandable. (Though apparently Jamerson used to be too drunk to stand up and still played bass better than anyone. Think he's a special case.)

But the "zero tolerance" idea isn't the reality. Just like you wouldn't know if someone's been using caffeine that day, you wouldn't know if someone who's used to smoking weed has smoked a little before a gig or session. It's not like in a sitcom or when someone tries it for the first time and can't stop laughing till they're sick.

So I have to wonder if the reason your experience tells you what you say is that you've never played with anyone who was noticeably intoxicated so assumed they hadn't taken anything but that doesn't mean they hadn't.

Won't mention any current day names but I know and know of great players, names and non-names, who do it, I'm not just guessing that they do or theorizing they'd still be able to play well.

Well its not me personally. The people I personally ever work with outside my band you could count on one hand but Im basing that on the content I consume like the URM stuff where top mixers are interviewed and do demo mixes etc every month etc. After following that for 3 years I've heard a lot of them say the same thing octatonic has.

thegummy

PolarityMan said:

thegummy said:

PolarityMan said:

FWIW everything that I follow, listen to and read echoes Octatonic's observations. there certainly seems to be far less tolerance of people being intoxicated while working in the studio or playing live.

I suspect that shrinking budgets might be a factor on the studio side as hardly anyone can afford to book out months of studio time to get an album done any  more so having to say waste a morning oif a session to cope with substance related drama becomes much more serious. 

When you say "intoxicated" then definitely, if they're drunk or on certain drugs the the point that other people can tell they're acting differently then it's understandable. (Though apparently Jamerson used to be too drunk to stand up and still played bass better than anyone. Think he's a special case.)

But the "zero tolerance" idea isn't the reality. Just like you wouldn't know if someone's been using caffeine that day, you wouldn't know if someone who's used to smoking weed has smoked a little before a gig or session. It's not like in a sitcom or when someone tries it for the first time and can't stop laughing till they're sick.

So I have to wonder if the reason your experience tells you what you say is that you've never played with anyone who was noticeably intoxicated so assumed they hadn't taken anything but that doesn't mean they hadn't.

Won't mention any current day names but I know and know of great players, names and non-names, who do it, I'm not just guessing that they do or theorizing they'd still be able to play well.

Well its not me personally. The people I personally ever work with outside my band you could count on one hand but Im basing that on the content I consume like the URM stuff where top mixers are interviewed and do demo mixes etc every month etc. After following that for 3 years I've heard a lot of them say the same thing octatonic has.

Sorry I was replying to you and Octatonic at the same time really.

I would just say the same thing to that though, if someone shows up over-indulged in anything to the point it's noticeable then of course it's not going to make the boss happy. An extreme example maybe, but if someone had so many coffees that they were all jittery it wouldn't be ideal lol.

But again, the musicians they're happy with who show up and just get on with it aren't necessarily stone cold sober, they just haven't taken something (or an amount of something) that stops them functioning well or is noticeable to anyone.

As a random comment, back in the days when I did used to smoke, I'd tend to mix my songs sober even if I'd smoked plenty while actually coming up with them. If I smoked before a mix I'd be tempted to experiment more with effects and changing things rather than just get on with the necessities of the mix lol. That's not to say that, if I had a boss telling me not to experiment that I couldn't have just got it done as it was, it was just better to get the mix done and save the weed for making another song where I wanted to experiment.

steven70

The important thing is making sure you balance your uppers and downers correctly. Otherwise the wheels tend to come off mid set...

DefaultM

Funniest thing I've ever seen at a gig was a drummer and guitarist in another band who'd got drunk and taken some pills.
Their pupils were like saucers, couldn't wait to get onstage. 20 minutes later they were off stage and proclaiming it to be the best they've ever played and an amazing gig blah blah.

Highlight was them playing There She Goes out of time, a semitone up from where it should be, and with the B and E strings out of tune. I can still hear it now 15 years later.
The singer sort of switched between singing where he thought the key should be, and what the guitarist was actually playing.  
The bassist looking at his fingers and back at the amp as if he was thinking "I practiced this for ages and I can't remember the key!"
Then we move on to Smells Like Teen Spirit. B and E still out of tune. That got interesting in the verse.

thegummy

DefaultM said:

Funniest thing I've ever seen at a gig was a drummer and guitarist in another band who'd got drunk and taken some pills.
Their pupils were like saucers, couldn't wait to get onstage. 20 minutes later they were off stage and proclaiming it to be the best they've ever played and an amazing gig blah blah.

Highlight was them playing There She Goes out of time, a semitone up from where it should be, and with the B and E strings out of tune. I can still hear it now 15 years later.
The singer sort of switched between singing where he thought the key should be, and what the guitarist was actually playing.  
The bassist looking at his fingers and back at the amp as if he was thinking "I practiced this for ages and I can't remember the key!"
Then we move on to Smells Like Teen Spirit. B and E still out of tune. That got interesting in the verse.

At least the latter would have been an accurate representation of a live Nirvana show.

DefaultM

Though for balance I was once at a gig and our drummer hadn't turned up. Couldn't get in touch with him, so we decided to soundcheck with our friend on drums and if the regular guy didn't show then he could play the gig. 

When we got through to him he was at home, only just woken up. He didn't even remember agreeing to the gig, so we told him not to worry about it.
An hour later he turned up. He'd slept in the park after we'd been out the night before, had all red wine down his shirt and his pupils were massive. Insisted on playing the gig, and it was absolute perfection. Never played with him again after that though.

professorben

@thegummy ;
Im not having a pop at you personally, it’s a subject I feel very strongly about, believe it or not I used to be VERY anti weed and drugs in general (typical for the child of hippy parents I guess) I have mellowed in my old age and now I can see the benefits of cannabis regarding pain relief and recreation ( I’ve seen the pain relieving effects personally on my partner) but not when it comes to music. 

My father smokes regularly, and I’ve been in bands over the years with people that smoke regularly (every day) and I’ve seen the devastating effect it has had on these guys. 

Lack of concentration, inability to remember, no drive or ambition, poor coordination on occasions.

I think of the hours of my life I’ve lost rehearsing the same songs over and over because some people can’t remember what they did last week, even when you play them the recording you made at the time, having to be the guy in the band that books the gigs, writes the songs, picks up the drummer, organizes the rehearsals, collects the money etc etc etc. 

Not to mention the impact it had on my childhood when my dad forgot to meet my baby sister and I for our visitation days, watching him descend into a hazy shadow of his former self. 

 You are not allowed to drive under the influence of cannabis because it impairs your ability to react, your coordination and your awareness, this is directly comparable to a technical activity such as playing an instrument, people are simply not as capable under the influence as they are without. 

Those are just the short term effects, that’s not taking into account the long term issues with concentration, mood swings, depression and psychological dependency. 

Out of all the people I know who have either committed or attempted suicide ALL have been regular smokers, 100% without exception. 

A lot of amazing music was created whilst high as a kite, imagine how amazing that music could have been if the artist had been in full control of their talents instead of handicapped? 

Weed is bad for you in so so so many ways, it’s just as dangerous as alcohol or any other dependency creating substance. 

These days I’m cool with people smoking weed, it’s their life to ruin, but I’ll never be in a band with someone that does again. 

richardhomer

@professorben - I regularly record with someone who’s a life-long smoker. He is unbelievably erratic. He has a habit of rearranging a piece of music completely - without consultation - and almost always to its detriment. When - in my unaltered state - I point this out, he invariably can’t understand why I don’t think the ‘new’ version is better. His ability to judge/quality control what he does is spectacularly ‘off’. 

If ever anyone’s convinced me that weed is not for me - it’s him.

professorben

richardhomer said:

@professorben - I regularly record with someone who’s a life-long smoker. He is unbelievably erratic. He has a habit of rearranging a piece of music completely - without consultation - and almost always to its detriment. When - in my unaltered state - I point this out, he invariably can’t understand why I don’t think the ‘new’ version is better. His ability to judge/quality control what he does is spectacularly ‘off’. 

If ever anyone’s convinced me that weed is not for me - it’s him.

Wis and +100

thegummy

richardhomer said:

@professorben - I regularly record with someone who’s a life-long smoker. He is unbelievably erratic. He has a habit of rearranging a piece of music completely - without consultation - and almost always to its detriment. When - in my unaltered state - I point this out, he invariably can’t understand why I don’t think the ‘new’ version is better. His ability to judge/quality control what he does is spectacularly ‘off’. 

If ever anyone’s convinced me that weed is not for me - it’s him.

I wouldn't be recording regularly with that guy lol.

But just like some people get drunk and start hugging everyone and telling them they love them while others have a few beers and start arguing, shouting and fighting with everyone, drugs affect people differently so you can't really draw any conclusions from one person.

If that guy you refer to isn't obnoxious like that sober then he definitely should stop while working with you.

I sincerely hope there aren't any open minded people read this thread and wonder if their lack of weed is hindering their creativity - there's also a plethora of evidence that many great albums have been written by people who weren't on weed at the time.

It's fairly common for people who want to give it up to worry that it'll stop their creativity but I still have creativity without it as do countless others.

Philly_Q

As someone who's never smoked anything (I confess I was lying about the East Berkshire League Division Three) this has certainly made for interesting reading.

LastMantra

Ginger Baker playing off his tits on smack was truly awesome! 

Probably actually made him easier to work with 

thegummy

LastMantra said:

Ginger Baker playing off his tits on smack was truly awesome! 

Probably actually made him easier to work with 

I take it you've seen the film about him. If not, it's really good.

Bound to leave anyone thinking "at least he was an amazing drummer" lol 

gringopig

.

imalrightjack

I actually started the weed conversation, if it helps.  I didn't intend for it to take off like this!  It's something I don't habitually do - and even less often for gigs/performances - and that's because I am aware it is 100% addictive, like booze/cigs/bad food/porn, etc., hence have moderate consumption of all things I believe to be bad for body/mind/spirit.  Some people can live that way, some can't.  But I guess that wasn't the original question...

Buying expensive guitars is dangerous and addictive, too...

earwighoney

gringopig said:

Not a great tale really and I'm sure all 3 wouldn't recommend drug and alcohol use as a means of creative expression. So much romanticism of drug taking and boozing but it's generally by those who can look from at it all from the outside.

I was watching a documentary about Comedy (on Sky Arts if anyone's interested) and there was a great line by the comedian Patton Oswalt who said when it comes to drugs and creativity there are well documented occasions where the artist in question are able to use drugs for their gains but more often than not in the long runs the drugs/addiction win.

Great post @professorben, I've seen a few of my really good friends pretty much lose their minds after smoking too much skunk.