What is it about distortion pedals that makes them sound not as good as amps?

Drew_TNBD

Okay.. debatable topic really... but I'm bored. Lets take it as read that for low-end chunk, 3d-ness, and in your face gain with clarity... what is it about pedals that makes them unable to deliver the same qualities as an amp?

This has been my experience anyway. I often find pedals are only really good for boosting already driven amps, or to add a light amount of crunch to a clean channel. I find as the sole source of high-gain rhythm that they're just not as good.

discuss or flame me. Your choice!

carlos

Weirdly I always go with a clean amp and then do the dirty with either a Rat or a Fuzz Factory.

steamabacus

Interesting question.

Just an uneducated hunch but - headroom and operating voltage, maybe? With my limited experience with running overdrives from 18V or more, I've noticed more '3D-ness' - inside an amp you've got potential for much more than 18V (especially valve amps).

Of course, that could be utter bollocks.

Danny1969

I don't like solidstate distortion, always go with valve amp dirt if poss. 

There's loads of technical reasons why a transistor doesn't behave or sound  like a valve,  such as power transfer characteristic, full satuation characteristic etc. But for me is boils down to you can hear minor and major thirds better with valve dirt. SS dirt is fine on 5ths but not so good for the whole chord. 

GuyBoden

Over the years, I think manufacturers have found that trying to create a valve amp sound with solid state transistors, opamps, jfets etc has been impossible, but pedals still have a unique sound of their own.

I'm not surprised because:
500volts dc in a Valve amp.
9v dc in a Guitar Pedal

Over the years I've found that transistors sound like transistors, jfets sound like jfets, valves sounds like valves.

I'm a Fender Deluxe Reverb owner and have built many valve amps and pedal circuits.

mike_l

Depends on the pedal surely?

Example, I like a Marshall Guvnor Mk1 or 2 as an alternative to a dirty amp, but an SD-1 or Bad Monkey as a boost to a dirty amp.

jellyroll

The owner. 

Chairs

I’m retroactively amending all my comments for privacy’s sake. I know they’re cached in places, but this is still a best attempts effort. Mods - if any rules have been broken, please revert this post.

Drew_TNBD

mike_l said:

Depends on the pedal surely?

Example, I like a Marshall Guvnor Mk1 or 2 as an alternative to a dirty amp, but an SD-1 or Bad Monkey as a boost to a dirty amp.

I've had a Guvnor, was nothing like a cranked Marshall to me. I liked the HT-Dual I had, but even that wasn't really that amp-like. Lacked something in the low-end.

GuyBoden

Drew_fx said:

mike_l said:

Depends on the pedal surely?

Example, I like a Marshall Guvnor Mk1 or 2 as an alternative to a dirty amp, but an SD-1 or Bad Monkey as a boost to a dirty amp.

I've had a Guvnor, was nothing like a cranked Marshall to me. I liked the HT-Dual I had, but even that wasn't really that amp-like. Lacked something in the low-end.

No it doesn't sound like a cranked Marshall, but it does sound like an opamp with led clipping for distortion.

Beexter

Hmm, I'm torn on this one. For years, I've used solid state amps set clean and got dirt from a variety of pedals. I play in a covers band and this approach gives me a lot of flexibility. Have just got my first proper valve amp though so may well be using amp distortion more...

One of my all time favourite guitarists is David Gilmour and pretty well all his classic lead tones come from dirt pedals into loud and clean HiWatts. The Comfortably Numb lead tone is probably my favourite tone of all time, so it's clearly a recipe that can work.

On the other hand, for straight up hard-rock crunch, it's hard to argue with the AC/DC approach of humbuckers straight into cranked Marshalls....simple set up, huge sound.

mike_l

Drew_fx said:

mike_l said:

Depends on the pedal surely?

Example, I like a Marshall Guvnor Mk1 or 2 as an alternative to a dirty amp, but an SD-1 or Bad Monkey as a boost to a dirty amp.

I've had a Guvnor, was nothing like a cranked Marshall to me. I liked the HT-Dual I had, but even that wasn't really that amp-like. Lacked something in the low-end.

yes, but the Guvnor is closer than an SD-1.

Also surely it depends on what volume you play at, and whether you're going into a clean amp, or DI-ing into a PA system.

I do understand what you're saying, as into a clean amp the guvnors (etc) don't have an exact match to a dirty Marshall sound, similar, but not exact.

samzadgan

Drew_fx said:

Okay.. debatable topic really... but I'm bored. Lets take it as read that for low-end chunk, 3d-ness, and in your face gain with clarity... what is it about pedals that makes them unable to deliver the same qualities as an amp?

This has been my experience anyway. I often find pedals are only really good for boosting already driven amps, or to add a light amount of crunch to a clean channel. I find as the sole source of high-gain rhythm that they're just not as good.

discuss or flame me. Your choice!

hmmm...i obvioulsy disagree...as i've had and played through amps with dirt channels, and I've always wondered why amp dirt doesn't sound as good as pedals i use for dirt...

i like go clean amps...and my current favourite pedals are the Black Arts Pharaoh and the Black Arts Quantum Mystic...yes, the Pharaoh is fuzz, but the Quantum Mystic is distortion, and i've never heard an amp with better dirty channel than this pedal.

timmysoft

I'm the other way round, I find amp distortions lacking in character but I do prefer more individual tones. My old vc30 with greenbacks paired with a rat or mesa throttle box was incredible, by far one of my favourite tones ever.

JD50

I agree for the most part although it all depends on the amp... say for example you want a Marshall or Muff type distortion, you won't get that from a Blues Junior without a pedal, that's not to say a cranked Blues Junior does not sound great.

midiglitch

I think its tautology.  Pedals do not do as good a job at sounding like amps as amps do.

Similarly amps do not do as good a job as sounding like pedals as pedals do.

Personally one of my favourite 'drive' sounds is fuzz.  I'm yet to come across an amp which can compare favourably to a fuzz pedal or a big muff...

Drew_TNBD

Ugh. I hate fuzz with a passion. Actually, not on bass... I like it on bass. I hate it on guitar. Same with pitch effects whilst we're at it!

Dave_Mc

Assuming you're talking about valve amps, the entire circuitry is pretty much different, far as i'm aware anyway.

Pretty much what midiglitch said, in other words.

tbm

I dunno, I've never been into the idea of a Swiss Army Knife style amps like the Mark VIn etc. I don't think I'm a luddite, but it I think it ties you to a voice, but I guess using an amp does that full stop. I had Marshall 2203 variants for years and I used a pedal to boost it into rockin terrritory, and no pedal into a clean amp is going to sound like that. But thats all it did. These days I like a cleanish amp as a starting point, then pedals to add whatever on top.

I do think you're right though, if you want that kind of sound, amp distortion is the best.

ThePrettyDamned

Great timing, I was just talking to my mate about this.

We compared three amps - a Blackstar ID 60, a Marshall DSL combo and a Peavey Bandit.  We also had a DS-1, Rat and Duncan Power Grid.

Best distortion sound on test was... DUN DUN DUN (both in agreement)

The blackstar ID 60. 

The Marshall DSL was a close second, Peavey Bandit third. 

However, all of them were miles better (as 'amp' distortion, with decent clean up, pick responsiveness, lack of boominess or shrill treble etc) than any of the pedals.  Rat won, Power Grid second, DS-1 third, though that boosted with a TS sounded pretty boss for leads.

Okay, all sounds were quite different to each other and not really comparable, but the conclusion is the same as @drew_fx - amps sound better than pedals. Pedals went into a Marshall DSL. 

Maybe the clean channel EQ just doesn't play as nice with pedals as a 'dedicated' drive section?  

Yup, it was an awesome day off for me today NERDOUT!

ICBM

Rather than trying to answer the question, I'm going to ask a few more…

Do valve pedals or external preamps - assuming they are actually all-valve, or close enough to it to be equivalent to a valve amp preamp - sound as good into a clean amp, as an overdriven amp does? Even a MV one, where the amp's distortion is all coming from the preamp?

Do external preamps sound better directly into the amp's power amp, or into the front?

Does a distortion pedal sound better into a valve amp which is primarily designed for a dirty sound, but which is actually running clean (eg a Mesa Rectifier on the clean channel), than it does into a valve amp designed to be clean (eg a FenderTwin)?

Does a hybrid amp sound better than a pedal into a clean valve amp? Not a 'single token valve' type hybrid, eg Marshall Valvestate - more of a proper hybrid like a Marshall JCM900 Dual Reverb or a Blackstar HT series where both technologies are used throughout the amp.

If you do like fuzz, some old solid-state amps from the 70s sound fantastic, and totally unlike any modern amp. Do fuzz pedals sound as good? (Or even the same?) Does it make any difference if they're going into valve or solid-state amps?