What is it about distortion pedals that makes them sound not as good as amps?

Gassage

Some SS amps are awesome- JC120 as an example.

There's a lot of stuff on here which makes comparisons pointless. I think Marshalls generally spund poor with a lot of drive or distortion pedals, yet a cranked HIwatt with an EP Booster or a Cornish CC1 is simply the best tone I've ever heard.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you can't over generalise here.

ICBM

Gassage said:

I guess what I'm trying to say is you can't over generalise here.

Exactly.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

Any chance you could explain why the distortion is mainly tube-generated in the BS HT series? I've seen the schematic and I've seen the clipping diodes (which one of the BS engineers, when emailed by someone on another forum, tried to claim weren't clipping diodes), but I don't want to be posting incorrect information, either. Doesn't it also have a bunch of op-amp gain stages before the preamp tube, too? I suppose they could be working like a clean boost, though.

The schematic that's available on the net is correct as far as I can tell, and it does contain that Tube Screamer-like circuit with diodes in an IC feedback loop, but don't jump to conclusions! It doesn't quite tell the whole story of how it works… you're closer than you may think .

There are indeed "clipping diodes" - although technically they are not clipping, they are hard-limiting the gain in a feedback loop. I think this is splitting hairs, to be honest - while it's not an absolutely correct description, they do still clip a part of the signal at that point, even if the result is not actually to clip the overall waveform itself.

But the diodes don't begin to conduct and clip the signal until the gain pot is above about 3 o'clock, with a typical loud humbucker going into it. The valve stages which follow it actually have a lot of gain, and overdrive a long way before this, so the with the gain knob below 3 o'clock the distortion you hear is all from the valve. Even when the diodes do eventually begin to conduct, the distortion they produce is entirely masked by that of the valve - if you scope it, the waveform doesn't change shape, it just becomes slightly more squashed. Having experimented with removing the diodes, their purpose is actually to prevent blocking distortion in the valve by limiting the signal going into it, rather than to add more dirt.

So it's neither correct to describe it as "all valve", or "just a Tube Screamer circuit with a valve after it", It's somewhere between the two - more like a valve amp being pushed harder by a Tube Screamer set close to a clean boost.

Thanks That makes sense.

For me it's the advertising thing that's the big problem- persuading you that something is higher quality (by that I mean "costs more to make") than it actually is. I use the "all-butter croissants" analogy... it doesn't matter if I can't taste the difference, if I'm paying for butter and being told it's made only with butter (which costs more), then I should get butter.

The other thing I prefer about something being all-valve is that I have options- I can try a pedal with the amp and satisfy myself that it doesn't make it sound any worse. With a hybrid you normally can't do that (in most cases).

I agree with you about the sliding scale thing- the irony is the HT series is arguably the "right" way to do a hybrid, and if they'd been more upfront about it the forums would probably have been saying how awesome they are. )

For me personally I don't really want amps to have diode clipping either if they're supposedly "all-valve" (though if they can be switched off it's not a massive problem, like in the valveking), but I also agree you could sort of argue that one either way.

Kebabkid

Mmm.. some of the best sounds I've ever experienced were from a Peavey 5150 and Rivera Rake (Jay Graydon model). However, despite now having a 3 channel amp (H&K Tubemeister 36), I still use a 3 Overdrive & Boosters set up into the clean channel to achieve what I want and believe I have more variety and control (pedals used singularly and stacked). It is different, and feels different under fingers, but it doesn't sound artificial. The OD pedals are Keeley TS808, Hermida Zendrive and Fulltone OCD and the boosts/tone-shapers are Xotic EP and Catalinbread Serrano Piccoso, but I think the Zendrive has the most natural/closer to amp sound and touch-sensitivity of the lot. With this is mind, next amp I get will probably be a single clean channel amp that's pedal friendly.

ThePrettyDamned

ICBM;273585" said:

I just think the whole idea of rating something as "all valve" is the problem - it deliberately implies superiority.



I don't think the term "hybrid" diminishes the importance of the valve elements - if they weren't important, you could just make it all solid-state!

There is also a big sliding scale of "hybrid", even just from the examples already given - everything from an essentially solid-state amp with a single valve in the preamp which really only adds some sort of "valveness" to the sound, but doesn't even distort, all the way through to a valve amp which has a couple of solid-state stages for things like the FX loop (if they aren't bypassable) which are still technically hybrids. Are they all equally good, or bad?

And are amps which use all-valve gain but with solid-state diode clipping also hybrids? I think you could argue it both ways…

There is even an amp which is the other way round - all-solid-state with a valve used purely as a clipping device! Bonus point if you know what it is .

No idea, but would be interested to know!

The Vox advt range is interesting - I think (amateur me) that it's a digital pre, then a valve driven mini power section (increase volume increases 'gain' on the valve power?) followed by a digital power amp model section which makes it loud. So it has a gain for the digital, volume for the valve and a master for the digital power section.

Happy to be corrected - that was the impression I got when I asked Vox. Whatever it is, I like them as modellers - not amazing models, but good sounds in their own right.

jeztone2

A lot of this is reception & perception.

I've just gone from using a 3 channel switching valve head with delays on an FX loop to pedals into a single channel amp & I've not noticed much difference.


I'm using a JFET based distortion box at 12v DC & I tried it at 9v DC and it did sound loads better at a higher voltage.

I suppose the question is, can the audience really hear the difference? Or is the tone unsatisfying to me? I sort of feel quite good about my tone using pedals at the moment. My current board is the size of a big laptop, so it's working well.

I know the stuff about Marshalls having non valve circuits in them & tbh I'm not bothered. I think the initial horror at the JCM900 was that it came out just as fashion had changed. So people wanted a different tone to perhaps the one they d designed it for?

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

The Vox advt range is interesting - I think (amateur me) that it's a digital pre, then a valve driven mini power section (increase volume increases 'gain' on the valve power?) followed by a digital power amp model section which makes it loud. So it has a gain for the digital, volume for the valve and a master for the digital power section.

Very nearly - the power section is simple analogue solid-state. There's actually no such thing as a 'digital' power amp despite Class D sometimes being called that. (From memory I think the Voxes use Class AB anyway but I could be wrong.)

ThePrettyDamned

@icbm go on, I'm intrigued as to this solid state amp with valve clipping. Enlighten me! And is it any good?

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

@icbm go on, I'm intrigued as to this solid state amp with valve clipping. Enlighten me! And is it any good?

It's not bad. Actually there are two versions of it, one with 'traditional' styling and one with more modern, although the amps are the same (or at least very close, there may have been some minor tweaks - I've never actually directly A/B'd them).

Any clues yet?

Fender Performer/Roc Pro.

The valve is connected purely as a back-to-back soft clipper - the signal doesn't even go 'through' it, so if you remove the valve the amp gets louder and cleaner! (And harsher-sounding.) To prevent this coming through the speaker at power-up and giving the game away, there's a delay circuit which allows time for the valve to warm up.

Not a bad-sounding amp at all, although they are suffering from long-term heat-related reliability issues now. A couple of the studios I work for have them, and I'm fighting an almost constant battle to keep them going now, so I'm not sure I'd recommend buying one to try!

I actually wonder whether anyone has thought of trying this in a pedal, too… since it doesn't require a high-voltage supply for the valve. I don't know of any, but I could easily be wrong.

ThePrettyDamned

Cool, thanks for the wisdom.

Stuff like that sounds really genuinely interesting - like you said, it could apply to a pedal. I know Kingsley do valve pedals, not sure if they're all valve or hybrid but they apparently sound pretty good.