The Doctor Who thread

digitalscream

Myranda said:

If you mean like Ghostbusters - you can criticise it, because it was unrelentingly shitty, unfunny and poorly written... but a lot of criticism of it was based on the fact that wimmins was in it and came before the film was out.

Anyone accusing you of sexism for critique of the writing or the acting should know I'm waiting to kick them up the arse. If however people say it's bad because of the lack of penises on the lead character then I can happily kick them too 

Doctor Who has lived through some pretty shitty writing though, so how would we know?

It's not so much me being accused of it that I'm bothered about (I've been accused of the same for far sketchier reasons than that) - it's that the press will essentially be afraid of the backlash, and thus will give it glowing reviews. But, similarly to the initial response to Ghostbusters, almost every criticism was met either by "You're only saying that because women are in it, so you're SEXIST!!!!" (for men) or "You're a gender traitor!!!!" (for women). It's only after months had passed that everyone settled down a bit and decided that yes, it was a pretty shit film after all.

Having had time to think about it, the poor writing quality is the main reason I'm annoyed by the gender swap. It was telegraphed so blatantly, along with all of the poor attempts at signalling gender politics in that video up there ^^ (however badly that guy put it, they are actually there), that it just seems...clumsy as hell.

If, however, they hadn't done any of that apart from the guard having a bit of a moan about her last body being a man (perhaps minus the "How do you cope with all that ego?" jab), and then - right at the end - had ol' Doc say, "Y'know what? I fancy a bit of a change..." - that would've been excellent. It fits with the character's whimsy, and it wouldn't have dumped the massive (conflicting) expectations on Jodie Whitaker which have essentially set her up to fail in terms of the show's ongoing success.

That's not even my overall concern, though. The show itself needs a serious smack round the chops - it's dropped off a cliff in terms of quality, even without the gender issue involved. That's highly unlikely to happen now, for the reasons I gave in my previous post...I could be wrong, but I don't think I am (obviously). I desperately want it to be good, but I think we all know it probably won't be.

Then, of course, there's the whole "I want this to be an educational show for children" bullshit, which...well, let's just say I don't have a lot of confidence that it's going to be worth watching. Kids' shows nowadays look more like Peppa Pig than Chocky, and that gives me a sad face.

stickyfiddle

I feel like I'm the only one looking forward to it, at least tentatively.

Obviously there's a chance it's being run by the producers (like the godawful DCEU) and that won't be fixed by bringing in Chibnall & Whittaker. Or it's possible (and I think likely) that they gave Moffat too much control before realising he's an ideas guys, not an execution guy, so a new gang could be very good. 

It's true that Ghostbusters was a complete trainwreck, but it is fair to say that a lot of the criticism was from incel types who just hate on anything that involves women who won't sleep with them (ie anything with women), which isn't to say it didn't deserve critique for being such a shit movie, but it did stop a lot of genuine criticism being taken seriously, and there is probably a risk that the same might happen here if it isn't good. Who knows?

digitalscream

stickyfiddle said:

I feel like I'm the only one looking forward to it, at least tentatively.

Obviously there's a chance it's being run by the producers (like the godawful DCEU) and that won't be fixed by bringing in Chibnall & Whittaker. Or it's possible (and I think likely) that they gave Moffat too much control before realising he's an ideas guys, not an execution guy, so a new gang could be very good. 

It's true that Ghostbusters was a complete trainwreck, but it is fair to say that a lot of the criticism was from incel types who just hate on anything that involves women who won't sleep with them (ie anything with women), which isn't to say it didn't deserve critique for being such a shit movie, but it did stop a lot of genuine criticism being taken seriously, and there is probably a risk that the same might happen here if it isn't good. Who knows?

Well, you've got my prediction (I promise not to edit it after the fact... ). This is definitely one of those "Don't want to be proven right..." situations.

Fretwired

Imagine Netflix making Doctor Who - it would be great. The concept is so original that it opens up a range of infinite possibilities storywise. Hire a great writing team and away you go. A worldwide hit and cash generator.

The BBC has basically ruined Doctor Who. Poor script writing, complicated story arcs, right on PC nonsense and virtue signalling. Capaldi has been given some shit lines. Audience viewing figures have plummeted. Changing the Doctor to a woman won't help unless the BBC follows US companies which hire writing teams.

As for the Christmas special the guy in the video has a point. The Hartnell era Doctor is an alien. He wouldn't bat an eyelid at meeting a gay person. And I'm sure he wouldn't be sexist - to start with the Tardis cleans itself. It doesn't need a woman with a tin of Mr Sheen and a Dyson. It was just poking fun at a pale, stale, male .... and was a cheap shot .. all part of alienating the older audience and trying to recruit a newer younger audience.

Good luck with that - they are all glued to Netflix box sets which pretty much piss all over the BBC's content with the exception of stuff made by other companies like the Bodyguard (made by ITV).

The BBC killed off Ripper Street (which was popular) which was picked up by Amazon who got in some decent writers. The final two series were far better than the BBC era. Rather than continuing the BBC killed off some key actors and binned it.

I do sometimes wonder what the BBC's agenda is ..

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

Imagine Netflix making Doctor Who

Goddammit, man.

Goddammit.

earwighoney

Fretwired said:

The BBC has basically ruined Doctor Who. Poor script writing, complicated story arcs....

I found the needlessly over complex narrative arcs to be why my interest in DW has been on the wane. The character arcs for Amy Pond and the assistant afterwards were so over the top in the timelines.  

axisus

Fretwired said:

Imagine Netflix making Doctor Who - it would be great. The concept is so original that it opens up a range of infinite possibilities storywise. Hire a great writing team and away you go. A worldwide hit and cash generator.

The BBC has basically ruined Doctor Who. Poor script writing, complicated story arcs, right on PC nonsense and virtue signalling. Capaldi has been given some shit lines. Audience viewing figures have plummeted. Changing the Doctor to a woman won't help unless the BBC follows US companies which hire writing teams.

Yeah, that's what I always say. American 'team writing' is so high quality these days. BBC are running a very tired old process.

Rabs

axisus said:

Fretwired said:

Imagine Netflix making Doctor Who - it would be great. The concept is so original that it opens up a range of infinite possibilities storywise. Hire a great writing team and away you go. A worldwide hit and cash generator.

The BBC has basically ruined Doctor Who. Poor script writing, complicated story arcs, right on PC nonsense and virtue signalling. Capaldi has been given some shit lines. Audience viewing figures have plummeted. Changing the Doctor to a woman won't help unless the BBC follows US companies which hire writing teams.

Yeah, that's what I always say. American 'team writing' is so high quality these days. BBC are running a very tired old process.

They probably outsource it to 10,000 monkeys typing on 10,000 typewriters  

Fretwired

Rabs said:

axisus said:

Fretwired said:

Imagine Netflix making Doctor Who - it would be great. The concept is so original that it opens up a range of infinite possibilities storywise. Hire a great writing team and away you go. A worldwide hit and cash generator.

The BBC has basically ruined Doctor Who. Poor script writing, complicated story arcs, right on PC nonsense and virtue signalling. Capaldi has been given some shit lines. Audience viewing figures have plummeted. Changing the Doctor to a woman won't help unless the BBC follows US companies which hire writing teams.

Yeah, that's what I always say. American 'team writing' is so high quality these days. BBC are running a very tired old process.

They probably outsource it to 10,000 monkeys typing on 10,000 typewriters  

They may do .. it seems to work though .. :-)

Myranda

Fretwired said:

Imagine Netflix making Doctor Who - it would be great. The concept is so original that it opens up a range of infinite possibilities storywise. Hire a great writing team and away you go. A worldwide hit and cash generator.

The BBC has basically ruined Doctor Who. Poor script writing, complicated story arcs, right on PC nonsense and virtue signalling. Capaldi has been given some shit lines. Audience viewing figures have plummeted. Changing the Doctor to a woman won't help unless the BBC follows US companies which hire writing teams.

Netflix have cancelled popular shows (popular enough that other channels rushed to pick them up) so just a big pile of money isn't always the answer... 

Not all Writing-In-A-Big-Group is a good plan... look what happened with Lost. And for every Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy there's a thousand Friends or Rosanne shows...

Writing teams often product just as shitty a show as a single writer, just like one good writer could beat a whole team of useless hacks

Fretwired

Myranda said:

Netflix have cancelled popular shows (popular enough that other channels rushed to pick them up) so just a big pile of money isn't always the answer... 

Not all Writing-In-A-Big-Group is a good plan... look what happened with Lost. And for every Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy there's a thousand Friends or Rosanne shows...

Writing teams often product just as shitty a show as a single writer, just like one good writer could beat a whole team of useless hacks

OK.

Doctor Who has been shite for sometime though - please tell me why the Moon being an egg that hatched into a large flying reptile that could survive in space that then laid another Moon sized egg was great writing. I'd argue that US shows are more popular and better made. If a show is crap Netflix will bin it. The BBC is funded by the public so can keep the likes of Doctor Who on screen even though the ratings are falling.

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

Myranda said:

Netflix have cancelled popular shows (popular enough that other channels rushed to pick them up) so just a big pile of money isn't always the answer... 

Not all Writing-In-A-Big-Group is a good plan... look what happened with Lost. And for every Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy there's a thousand Friends or Rosanne shows...

Writing teams often product just as shitty a show as a single writer, just like one good writer could beat a whole team of useless hacks

OK.

Doctor Who has been shite for sometime though - please tell me why the Moon being an egg that hatched into a large flying reptile that could survive in space that then laid another Moon sized egg was great writing. I'd argue that US shows are more popular and better made. If a show is crap Netflix will bin it. The BBC is funded by the public so can keep the likes of Doctor Who on screen even though the ratings are falling.

...so perhaps, given that it's unlikely it'd ever survive if it had to justify its own existence in a commercial sense, it needs to be shelved again for a couple of decades until they can try again?

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

Myranda said:

Netflix have cancelled popular shows (popular enough that other channels rushed to pick them up) so just a big pile of money isn't always the answer... 

Not all Writing-In-A-Big-Group is a good plan... look what happened with Lost. And for every Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy there's a thousand Friends or Rosanne shows...

Writing teams often product just as shitty a show as a single writer, just like one good writer could beat a whole team of useless hacks

OK.

Doctor Who has been shite for sometime though - please tell me why the Moon being an egg that hatched into a large flying reptile that could survive in space that then laid another Moon sized egg was great writing. I'd argue that US shows are more popular and better made. If a show is crap Netflix will bin it. The BBC is funded by the public so can keep the likes of Doctor Who on screen even though the ratings are falling.

...so perhaps, given that it's unlikely it'd ever survive if it had to justify its own existence in a commercial sense, it needs to be shelved again for a couple of decades until they can try again?

Perhaps.

Or cut the PC crap. There's an excellent video on YouTube suggesting that Olivia Coleman should have been the Doctor rather than Capaldi. She is a first class actor who can play dark characters and has a wide emotional range. There wouldn't have been the Capaldi era right on PC twaddle resulting in poor scripts and the BBC could have invested in better writers. The issue of the Doctor becoming a woman wouldn't have been such as issue - it was signposted during the Capaldi era in every other episode. The new show runner worked with the new Doctor Who actor and didn't consider anyone else.

Now it could be the best Who ever and I'm happy to eat humble pie. I doubt it. I don't like the focus on 'education' - sounds very North Korea to me.

digitalscream

Here you go, a likely vision of the show's future...

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Here you go, a likely vision of the show's future...

I didn't realise the new showrunner wrote those episodes ... not a good advertisement. Why did he get the job?

Myranda

Fretwired said:

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

Myranda said:

Netflix have cancelled popular shows (popular enough that other channels rushed to pick them up) so just a big pile of money isn't always the answer... 

Not all Writing-In-A-Big-Group is a good plan... look what happened with Lost. And for every Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy there's a thousand Friends or Rosanne shows...

Writing teams often product just as shitty a show as a single writer, just like one good writer could beat a whole team of useless hacks

OK.

Doctor Who has been shite for sometime though - please tell me why the Moon being an egg that hatched into a large flying reptile that could survive in space that then laid another Moon sized egg was great writing. I'd argue that US shows are more popular and better made. If a show is crap Netflix will bin it. The BBC is funded by the public so can keep the likes of Doctor Who on screen even though the ratings are falling.

...so perhaps, given that it's unlikely it'd ever survive if it had to justify its own existence in a commercial sense, it needs to be shelved again for a couple of decades until they can try again?

Perhaps.

Or cut the PC crap. There's an excellent video on YouTube suggesting that Olivia Coleman should have been the Doctor rather than Capaldi. She is a first class actor who can play dark characters and has a wide emotional range. There wouldn't have been the Capaldi era right on PC twaddle resulting in poor scripts and the BBC could have invested in better writers. The issue of the Doctor becoming a woman wouldn't have been such as issue - it was signposted during the Capaldi era in every other episode. The new show runner worked with the new Doctor Who actor and didn't consider anyone else.

Now it could be the best Who ever and I'm happy to eat humble pie. I doubt it. I don't like the focus on 'education' - sounds very North Korea to me.

Now, honestly, are you trying to say that without the "PC crap" (and who wants PC? Lets always call each other names, because PC is bad... right?) the writing would be great? 

All the poorly made macguffin plots would be fine if the show had a few more racial epithets? 
"Save me doctor"
"I'm no saving a negro faggot!" 
Would that line help make Doctor Who better for you?

And before you get all puffy that post says to just cut the PC crap, and that the PC twaddle resulted in poor scripts. The PC twaddle which made a quip every now and then. Out of hundreds of lines of twaddle you fixate on the PC bits (presumably you're aching to call that neighbour of yours all sorts of names as soon as "PC" goes out of fashion, I'm sure he'll get on a banana boat back to bongo bongo land lickety split!)

Whilst I agree that some of the comments are a little heavy handedly PC they're also in the extreme minority of poorly written lines - you yourself brought up that shitty egg/moon episode earlier. The PC twaddle didn't make that happen, and even with the occasional faggot/nigger/wop comment the episode would be shit because the whole premise is shit... (why were there massive creepy spiders by way of an immune system? why did the dragon lay an egg bigger than it, etc...).

I know we live in a time where sometimes people will suggest that the queers can leave the shadows, or that the blacks can get jobs, or that women have a place in society, and that that is scary for some... but is *that* really what made Doctor Who shitty for the last couple of years, or is Doctor Who being shitty for a few years a good excuse for your to pop off about that Arab neighbour of yours

Fretwired

Myranda said:

Now, honestly, are you trying to say that without the "PC crap" (and who wants PC? Lets always call each other names, because PC is bad... right?) the writing would be great? 

All the poorly made macguffin plots would be fine if the show had a few more racial epithets? 
"Save me doctor"
"I'm no saving a negro faggot!" 
Would that line help make Doctor Who better for you?

And before you get all puffy that post says to just cut the PC crap, and that the PC twaddle resulted in poor scripts. The PC twaddle which made a quip every now and then. Out of hundreds of lines of twaddle you fixate on the PC bits (presumably you're aching to call that neighbour of yours all sorts of names as soon as "PC" goes out of fashion, I'm sure he'll get on a banana boat back to bongo bongo land lickety split!)

Whilst I agree that some of the comments are a little heavy handedly PC they're also in the extreme minority of poorly written lines - you yourself brought up that shitty egg/moon episode earlier. The PC twaddle didn't make that happen, and even with the occasional faggot/nigger/wop comment the episode would be shit because the whole premise is shit... (why were there massive creepy spiders by way of an immune system? why did the dragon lay an egg bigger than it, etc...).

I know we live in a time where sometimes people will suggest that the queers can leave the shadows, or that the blacks can get jobs, or that women have a place in society, and that that is scary for some... but is *that* really what made Doctor Who shitty for the last couple of years, or is Doctor Who being shitty for a few years a good excuse for your to pop off about that Arab neighbour of yours

PC crap = Moon as egg with a monster in it .. horrible people from Earth trying to kill it (humans are horrible to animals and the environment etc). Doctor saves the day, space reptile lives and lays another Moon egg. Full of right on PC eco baloney. So yes .. cut crap like this and you'll have better stories.

Sun as a living organism .. nasty Earth people stealing from the Sun to power ships so evil humans must die .... similar to above?

My comment wasn't directed at gay characters or a woman Doctor. As I said in an earlier post I think the BBC missed an opportunity with Madame Vastra and her gang .. they would have made an excellent spin off series .. if I recall Vastra is in a gay relationship with Jenny. Didn't get in the way of the stories though. Captain Jack was another good character who had a gay relationship in Torchwood. It was well done and added to the character and the story ...

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

Imagine Netflix making Doctor Who - it would be great. The concept is so original that it opens up a range of infinite possibilities storywise. Hire a great writing team and away you go. A worldwide hit and cash generator.

The BBC has basically ruined Doctor Who. Poor script writing, complicated story arcs, right on PC nonsense and virtue signalling. Capaldi has been given some shit lines. Audience viewing figures have plummeted. Changing the Doctor to a woman won't help unless the BBC follows US companies which hire writing teams.

It's interesting to see Who through the ages. Look at Sylvester McCoy's era. The writers then were young anti-Tory types for the most part and they gave excellent storylines that did address political and societal matters. Remembrance of the Daleks dealt with race and racial supremacy really well for instance. The difference now is that there isn't that subtlety when it comes to incorporating so-called PC stories. Who in the past did not treat its audience as stupidly as the recent scripts have. Personally I think American shows treat their audiences as having the intelligence to not need everything spelled out in black and white. 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

Imagine Netflix making Doctor Who - it would be great. The concept is so original that it opens up a range of infinite possibilities storywise. Hire a great writing team and away you go. A worldwide hit and cash generator.

The BBC has basically ruined Doctor Who. Poor script writing, complicated story arcs, right on PC nonsense and virtue signalling. Capaldi has been given some shit lines. Audience viewing figures have plummeted. Changing the Doctor to a woman won't help unless the BBC follows US companies which hire writing teams.

It's interesting to see Who through the ages. Look at Sylvester McCoy's era. The writers then were young anti-Tory types for the most part and they gave excellent storylines that did address political and societal matters. Remembrance of the Daleks dealt with race and racial supremacy really well for instance. The difference now is that there isn't that subtlety when it comes to incorporating so-called PC stories. Who in the past did not treat its audience as stupidly as the recent scripts have. Personally I think American shows treat their audiences as having the intelligence to not need everything spelled out in black and white. 

^^

This. Well put ...

Writers on Star Trek TNG were good at writing great stories whilst making moral, social, political or environmental comments.

I think the problem with Who is the pressure put on a single show runner and writer.

Rabs

Trailer 2... Not that its helping much    The production style seems pretty different, dare I say more American..