The F1 thread

stickyfiddle

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

Hopefully they'll keep Palmer and dump Crashtor for Vandoorne or JEV. Who else is around who's up to it? 

Alonso...??

I wondered about Alonso .. I think Crashtor will go .. I also think Renault will want experienced drivers given the fact Red Bull will have the same basic engine for 2016 so Palmer could be out as well. I bet Renault's CEO has gone on a fishing expedition to see if anyone like Alonso might want to jump ship.

Given the history I can't imagine for a second they haven't been to talk with Fred. The other "obvious" guys are Rosberg, Button, Ricciardo, I guess. And maybe trying to see if RoGro would drop Haas, but I do see JEV as a good shout - well liked Frenchman, pretty much kept pace with Ricciardo and Kyat at TR.

Ricciardo would be an excellent target, being the only guy to win with the current Renault engine, but from what I've read Horner is confident his RB contract is watertight.

chillidoggy

Be interesting to see a copy of an F1 driver contract, eh?

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

Be interesting to see a copy of an F1 driver contract, eh?

Alonso has a 'car performance' clause so he can walk (Honda/McLaren haven't delivered), hence the talk of a sabbatical. I did wonder if his change of heart was a 'come and rescue me' moment for the benefit of Renault .. :-)

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:@ESchap Palmer hasn't got a guaranteed seat .. Renault CEO Carlos Ghosn hints that the team may not retain Lotus drivers Pastor Maldonado and Jolyon Palmer following the French manufacturer's takeover.

stickyfiddle said:

Hopefully they'll keep Palmer and dump Crashtor for Vandoorne or JEV. Who else is around who's up to it? 

Alonso...??

Vandoorne should be on standby for replacing Alonso next season if the pre-season testing is shit. There is no point McLaren paying all that cash for Alonso to come 17th and no point for Alonso to waste another year being overtaken by Saubers. Button would at least accept it with a certain sense of British wit and would be a good mentor for Vandoorne as the two are quite similar in driving style and the way they manage themselves on the track. I imagine Vandoorne would be in a similar price bracket in terms of salary to Magnusson. 

In a side note, it's amusing to watch Ron pissing about Magnusson and how he failed to achieve specific goals. If a rookie can get dumped for missing targets, then an experienced team principal who has overseen a disaster with Honda and who is losing sponsors like a camel with diarrhea should be subject to the same standards. 

Renault dumping Pastor for JEV would be a poor decision. Pastor brings cash and has a win under his belt and a 5th place: JEV's never been higher than 6th, doesn't have the same financial backing, and really is no better a driver than Pastor. The team would do better by taking Pastor's millions and using that to help fund Alonso. I also think working as number two to a genuinely big name in Alonso would be a good education for Pastor. The second half of the season, he's been pretty good in a team with sod all money (as evidenced by the spare wings in the final race being taped up because they couldn't afford to make all-new replacements). 

Now in the long run Renault would want a French driver for the usual promotion.national pride elements. With JEV in the Ferrari test driver role, then he will have some form of access to Ferrari's plans for the 2017 cars. It would make more sense to leave him there for now with a promise that, should Pastor have a shitty 2016, he will then replace the Venezuelan and bring some of his experience within the Ferrari camp to Renault. 

So Renault should retain Pastor, keep Palmer as a reserve driver, and throw the money at Alonso. He has nothing to lose by going to Renault. 

chillidoggy

I can't understand Alonso staying at McLaren. He must be so pissed off being passed by pretty much everything on the circuit. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he makes a move. You're right when you say McLaren doesn't need to pay for Alonso, I've never worked out how, when they knew they would be shite, they didn't sign up two rookies and trouser the cash. And yup, how Big Ron keeps his job is beyond me, too. But I disagree with you about JEV, I reckon would be a good choice for Renault.

TBH, I think the only reason Malfunctionado is in F1 is because of the sponsorship money. True, he might have won a race, but let's not forget the circumstances, and he's never been anywhere near the front since.

Winter testing will be interesting. Anyone know the programme? I'm guessing it'll be Spain as per usual.

Heartfeltdawn

He went to McLaren because it was the only big team he could go to and Honda had some serious history to go with their name as an engine supplier. 

chillidoggy said:

You're right when you say McLaren doesn't need to pay for Alonso, I've never worked out how, when they knew they would be shite, they didn't sign up two rookies and trouser the cash. And yup, how Big Ron keeps his job is beyond me, too. But I disagree with you about JEV, I reckon would be a good choice for Renault.

TBH, I think the only reason Malfunctionado is in F1 is because of the sponsorship money. True, he might have won a race, but let's not forget the circumstances, and he's never been anywhere near the front since.

McLaren didn't know they would be this shit. With limited testing and the restrictions on development during the season, a completely idiotic move on the part of those who rule, they've lost out massively. If the winter pre-season testing is bad, then it makes sense for all concerned for Alonso to go to Renault. Dropping Palmer down to reserve driver won't be a hard decision. 

A sense of the money involved in F1 with drivers was revealed in the Telegraph. Asking Will Stephens to increase the £10 million fee, Palmer paying £250k per practice session to drive a Lotus... that is why someone like Renault would be absolutely insane to drop Maldonado with his financial backing. It was reported that Maldonado actually paid Lotus up to the end of 2016 as well. In 2012 Pastor brought $92 million into Williams. By comparison Renault in 2010 brought in $77 million of sponsorship as a team. Renault do have financial power but they would be idiots to dump that sort of money for Vergne who is no better a driver. 

Pastor makes mistakes but the chap can drive. Both he and Vergne won GP2 titles as Vandoorne has this year and Palmer did last year. He's unrefined but he's no Taki Inoue or Narain Karthikeyan or Will Stephens (who has been right royally shown up by Alex Rossi this year). 

Testing in Barcelona in March:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121114

Fretwired

Renault don't need a drivers sponsorship. They need to win races and given a choice I bet the CEO of Renault would opt for Alonso and Hamilton over his current driver line-up. Renault are a manufacturer and will get a payback from selling products. Mercedes calculated that in their first year as champions they made £350 million in car sales.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

Renault don't need a drivers sponsorship. They need to win races and given a choice I bet the CEO of Renault would opt for Alonso and Hamilton over his current driver line-up. Renault are a manufacturer and will get a payback from selling products. Mercedes calculated that in their first year as champions they made £350 million in car sales.

Every team needs to maximise their income when starting up again, whether you're Haas or Renault. Within the confines of this conversation, it was mooted to Maldonado could be dropped in favour of Vergne. From a financial and racing point of view, it is one that makes zero sense. Carlos Ghosn is not a spendthrift. He rescued both Renault and Nissan from tough times and is unlikely to pour unlimited cash into F1 immediately when the team is as yet unproven and with a raft of changes coming in for 2017. 2016 is a holding year in readiness for the flipsoid fun of 2017. 

Yes, Mercedes sold more cars. If you look over that period, Renault had difficult times. Mercedes gained a lot from F1 in both the high-end market and with sales of vans and utility vehicles (which affected Renault). Over that same period, Renault took quite a drop in the average car market and in vans etc and the high-end market isn't their scene. Over 2014, sales in Russia and Latin America sank and it was the sales of budget Dacias that helped earnings jump some 30 percent. Being part of the glitz circus helps Mercedes and polishes the image: it's a different if your're trying to sell cheap cars in India, a place where F1 fell flat despite pots of money floating around, and China. 

I'd take you up on that bet and gladly take the money. It's a combination that was toxic at McLaren and would be toxic now. Ghosn is not an idiot and only an idiot would want that combination.  

 

chillidoggy

Well, I guess we will know soon enough what the outcome will be. Even if we never find out the real reasons behind them. Crazy how the politics is more intriguing than the racing, but it wouldn't be the first time.

Ianpdq

chillidoggy said:

I would pay to watch decent F1 coverage, but it don't want all the other SkySports shite that goes with it. If they offered it to me as a pay per race I'd consider it.

I just have Sky F1 and no other sports  

chillidoggy

Ianpdq said:

chillidoggy said:

I would pay to watch decent F1 coverage, but it don't want all the other SkySports shite that goes with it. If they offered it to me as a pay per race I'd consider it.

I just have Sky F1 and no other sports  

Hmmmmm.

chillidoggy

Big Ron admits to falling out with TAG Heuer -

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122135

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Every team needs to maximise their income when starting up again, whether you're Haas or Renault. Within the confines of this conversation, it was mooted to Maldonado could be dropped in favour of Vergne. From a financial and racing point of view, it is one that makes zero sense. Carlos Ghosn is not a spendthrift. He rescued both Renault and Nissan from tough times and is unlikely to pour unlimited cash into F1 immediately when the team is as yet unproven and with a raft of changes coming in for 2017. 2016 is a holding year in readiness for the flipsoid fun of 2017. 

Yes, Mercedes sold more cars. If you look over that period, Renault had difficult times. Mercedes gained a lot from F1 in both the high-end market and with sales of vans and utility vehicles (which affected Renault). Over that same period, Renault took quite a drop in the average car market and in vans etc and the high-end market isn't their scene. Over 2014, sales in Russia and Latin America sank and it was the sales of budget Dacias that helped earnings jump some 30 percent. Being part of the glitz circus helps Mercedes and polishes the image: it's a different if your're trying to sell cheap cars in India, a place where F1 fell flat despite pots of money floating around, and China. 

I'd take you up on that bet and gladly take the money. It's a combination that was toxic at McLaren and would be toxic now. Ghosn is not an idiot and only an idiot would want that combination.  

 

Most people can't afford an expensive Merc but may buy a Renault - they make decent sporty hatchbacks. VW is in trouble - sales down 20% in the UK alone - so it's easy for Renault, if they do well in F1, to boost sales of their standard cars and no doubt bring out F1 themed special editions.

And £70 million is peanuts for a company like Renault. It's success on the track that counts. The point I was making was that if a dream team like Alonso and Hamilton became available they'd drop their current drivers in a shot. The £70 million can be made up in prize money winning races and doing well in the constructors championship.

Heartfeltdawn

Renault aren't alone in trying to use motorsport to pump up the image. Ford have the GT program going, Aston Martin are apparently poised to jump back in there, and you have the hilarity of Toyota going back to the WRC next year with the mighty Yaris (chuckle). The point is I was making is that F1 is seldom a great vehicle for selling average family cars. Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, Aston Martin, Lamborghini engines in the past, sure. For Renault as well, it's arguable that their rallying heritage did more for them than F1 in the 80's. 

£70 million is a small amount in the finances of Renault as a company but no team, not even Ferrari, would simply give away £70 million like that simply to get a slightly crap Frenchman who hasn't raced for a year in F1 and hardly tore apart the Formula E field. You also have to look at the history of Renault. They pulled out in 1985 due to financial problems. The company has returned itself to a decent financial level now under Ghosn, a man with a thrifty reputation. 

In 2014 Mercedes took home $108 million dollars in prize money through title wins and so on, with extra money coming through other contracts. That money came from winning 17 out of 20 races and the constructors title. That's about £70 million quid. So for Renault to make the £70 million in prize money etc as you say, they'd have to do what Mercedes did in 2014 in terms of result. I'd say that's pretty bloody unlikely. The only way they could come close to that is if Bernie has agreed to a wallet-busting historic payout. And it would be madness for the Renault bosses to say "Fuck it, we'll lose Pastor's cash, we can earn it back in race wins and constructor position" when you've had two years of near-complete dominance by one team that isn't Ferrari and the Renault engines have been mostly shit. 

If Renault were so money-happy, then they wouldn't have signed Vitaly Petrov not so long ago and let him trash cars for two years

Heartfeltdawn

Carlos Ghosn himself says it'll take three years to be competitive. 

http://www.foxsportsasia.com/motorsport/f1/news/detail/item105376/Renault:-Three-years-to-be-competitive?

So don't count on that race win income quite yet. 

chillidoggy

JEV is 7th out of 35 in the Formula E table. I wouldn't call him 'slightly crap'. Although it's true I did once comment that FE is where all old F1 drivers go to die.

If Ghosn himself has said it'll take three years to get to the top, then he's got a choice of cash or cheap drivers. But if that's the case we have to ask whether Crashtor is likely to want to stay in a team which, if Ghosn's predictions are true, could be like Honda was this year. He also has to ask himself if he wants to employ the driver with the worst reputation for crashing cars and picking up penalty points in the sport, rather than a Frenchman.

Jury's still out for me.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Carlos Ghosn himself says it'll take three years to be competitive. 

http://www.foxsportsasia.com/motorsport/f1/news/detail/item105376/Renault:-Three-years-to-be-competitive?

So don't count on that race win income quite yet. 

The engine should start to be competitive as Renault have brought in the Brits who know all about high-performance engines. The boys at Ilmor will sort them out - Ron must kicking himself he didn't get them to team up with Honda given what they did for McLaren Mercedes in the 1990s.

Heartfeltdawn

chillidoggy said:

JEV is 7th out of 35 in the Formula E table. I wouldn't call him 'slightly crap'. Although it's true I did once comment that FE is where all old F1 drivers go to die.

If Ghosn himself has said it'll take three years to get to the top, then he's got a choice of cash or cheap drivers. But if that's the case we have to ask whether Crashtor is likely to want to stay in a team which, if Ghosn's predictions are true, could be like Honda was this year. He also has to ask himself if he wants to employ the driver with the worst reputation for crashing cars and picking up penalty points in the sport, rather than a Frenchman.

Jury's still out for me.

Rather than a Frenchman who has done sod all really for a year. When you have the like of Di Grassi and Buemi driving Formula E and then off to the WEC (and winning a drivers title in the case of Buemi with Toyota in 2014), then there are better people out there than Vergne. Red Bull certainly thought so. 

Maldonado this season showed improvement. Of the nine retirements, seven were down to errors by other drivers (Australia: hit by Nasr, Mayalsia: hit by Bottas, China: hit by Button, Bahrain: hit by Verstappen and Massa, Spain: hit by Grosjean, Silverstone: Grosjean again, Abu Dhabi: clearly Fernando's fault). By all means slate him for being rubbish when it comes to speeding in the pit lane (in 2014 he and Bianchi were leading the penalty points) but there was a clear attempt to be a cleaner driver second half of the season and the way he was jumped upon for the Ericsson incident at Interlagos was a bit pathetic. 

Ghosn is predicting three years to being competitive. That's pretty much how long it took the Mercs after they returned in 2010. 2010 comeback, win in 2012, championships in 2014-15. I don't believe that Ghosn thinks Renault will be anywhere near as bad as Honda this season. Even now the Renault engine is better than that of Honda. 

Fretwired said:

The engine should start to be competitive as Renault have brought in the Brits who know all about high-performance engines. The boys at Ilmor will sort them out - Ron must kicking himself he didn't get them to team up with Honda given what they did for McLaren Mercedes in the 1990s.

Ron doesn't need to kick himself. There's more than enough people out there who'd do it for him. If he were to erect a small marquee in the car park at Woking and promoted a special '£1,000 to kick Ron Dennis up the arse' event, he'd cover the loss of the TAG money within hours. 

chillidoggy

Malfunctionado penalty points in 2014 - 4. Penalty points in 2015 - 8. A 100% increase.

Doesn't look much like an improving driver to me in that respect. Let's face it - without the money he'd be out of F1 tomorrow.

 

I might just have a grand spare though...........

Heartfeltdawn

chillidoggy said:

Malfunctionado penalty points in 2014 - 4. Penalty points in 2015 - 8. A 100% increase.

Doesn't look much like an improving driver to me in that respect. Let's face it - without the money he'd be out of F1 tomorrow.

...which is why I said he showed an improvement over the second half of the season. Have a look yourself. Only one penalty in races 11 to 20. Of the penalties this season, two were 'causing an incident'. 

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015-f1-season/statistics/penalties-index/

Let's face it - without his money, Lotus would have been fucked this season. As said earlier, his sponsorship up to the end of next season was paid to Lotus this year. Everyone knows how strapped for beans they've been this year.

F1 has always had pay drivers and will always need them as long as the financial distribution is so skewed against the small teams.