The F1 thread

chillidoggy

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

Apparently one of them overheard Bernie at a recent historic F1 thing in Monaco: "Isn't this great? How did I manage to fuck it all up?"

Apparently Bernie would be happy if Mercedes and Ferrari just quit .. they are blocking change.

Bernie would crap his  pants if that happened!

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

Apparently one of them overheard Bernie at a recent historic F1 thing in Monaco: "Isn't this great? How did I manage to fuck it all up?"

Apparently Bernie would be happy if Mercedes and Ferrari just quit .. they are blocking change.

Bernie would crap his  pants if that happened!

I'm not sure. There's a view that Merc and Ferrari are holding the sport back, blocking changes in regulations and therefore stopping inward investment and new teams joining. The sport needs a cheaper simpler engine, a generic engine smaller teams can buy and modify, reduced aero, tyre choice, refuelling and a move to racing over strategy.

chillidoggy

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

Apparently one of them overheard Bernie at a recent historic F1 thing in Monaco: "Isn't this great? How did I manage to fuck it all up?"

Apparently Bernie would be happy if Mercedes and Ferrari just quit .. they are blocking change.

Bernie would crap his  pants if that happened!

I'm not sure. There's a view that Merc and Ferrari are holding the sport back, blocking changes in regulations and therefore stopping inward investment and new teams joining. The sport needs a cheaper simpler engine, a generic engine smaller teams can buy and modify, reduced aero, tyre choice, refuelling and a move to racing over strategy.

chillidoggy

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

Apparently one of them overheard Bernie at a recent historic F1 thing in Monaco: "Isn't this great? How did I manage to fuck it all up?"

Apparently Bernie would be happy if Mercedes and Ferrari just quit .. they are blocking change.

Bernie would crap his  pants if that happened!

I'm not sure. There's a view that Merc and Ferrari are holding the sport back, blocking changes in regulations and therefore stopping inward investment and new teams joining. The sport needs a cheaper simpler engine, a generic engine smaller teams can buy and modify, reduced aero, tyre choice, refuelling and a move to racing over strategy.

I can't see it happening.

Fretwired

Report from the BBC .. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/35059767

Garthy

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

Apparently one of them overheard Bernie at a recent historic F1 thing in Monaco: "Isn't this great? How did I manage to fuck it all up?"

Apparently Bernie would be happy if Mercedes and Ferrari just quit .. they are blocking change.

Bernie would crap his  pants if that happened!

I'm not sure. There's a view that Merc and Ferrari are holding the sport back, blocking changes in regulations and therefore stopping inward investment and new teams joining. The sport needs a cheaper simpler engine, a generic engine smaller teams can buy and modify, reduced aero, tyre choice, refuelling and a move to racing over strategy.

I'm sure they would be open to simpler engines on the proviso FOM refund Ferrari, Honda, Mercedes and Renault the $2bn they have spent collectively on R&D and manufacturing of these engines. If I had spent that kind of money I'd damn well want to see the regulations through to their conclusion too. The engines per season are not as expensive as BE makes out- a year's supply of Merc engines is 2 million Euros more per season than the V8s. The extra expense some complain about is that they are comparing a bare bones Mercedes V8 vs a V6T with a gearbox, fuel, lube, embedded staff etc. The V8s also needed this fluff but it does not suit Bernie's agenda to compare apples with apples.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

I'm not sure. There's a view that Merc and Ferrari are holding the sport back, blocking changes in regulations and therefore stopping inward investment and new teams joining. The sport needs a cheaper simpler engine, a generic engine smaller teams can buy and modify, reduced aero, tyre choice, refuelling and a move to racing over strategy.

I'm struggling to recall the last time I heard fans online complaining that the two biggest teams in F1 were holding F1 back. 

In a strange way it would help if Mercedes and Ferrari quit. Having that sort of bombshell move would force change. Ferrari and Mercedes in LMP1 in the WEC against Porsche, Audi, and Toyota would be pretty damn special. BMW were mentioned as considering a 2017 entry. 

F1 wouldn't be able to produce anything to rival that with the teams left. 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

I'm not sure. There's a view that Merc and Ferrari are holding the sport back, blocking changes in regulations and therefore stopping inward investment and new teams joining. The sport needs a cheaper simpler engine, a generic engine smaller teams can buy and modify, reduced aero, tyre choice, refuelling and a move to racing over strategy.

I'm struggling to recall the last time I heard fans online complaining that the two biggest teams in F1 were holding F1 back. 

In a strange way it would help if Mercedes and Ferrari quit. Having that sort of bombshell move would force change. Ferrari and Mercedes in LMP1 in the WEC against Porsche, Audi, and Toyota would be pretty damn special. BMW were mentioned as considering a 2017 entry. 

F1 wouldn't be able to produce anything to rival that with the teams left. 

Go online and read the criticism of fans with regards Mercedes - this year was a total snooze fest. Hamilton won the championship with three races to go and went partying giving Rosberg a chance to win a few races.

The cost of the engines lies in the R&D ... it's a barrier to entry for independent engine manufacturers. The Mercedes works team engine is different from the customer engine that Williams uses - Williams don't get the full software package so can't tweak performance the way Mercedes can.

Apparently Mercedes have a major performance boost for next year so expect more of the same. The viewing figures say it all.

Garthy

Fretwired said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

I'm not sure. There's a view that Merc and Ferrari are holding the sport back, blocking changes in regulations and therefore stopping inward investment and new teams joining. The sport needs a cheaper simpler engine, a generic engine smaller teams can buy and modify, reduced aero, tyre choice, refuelling and a move to racing over strategy.

I'm struggling to recall the last time I heard fans online complaining that the two biggest teams in F1 were holding F1 back. 

In a strange way it would help if Mercedes and Ferrari quit. Having that sort of bombshell move would force change. Ferrari and Mercedes in LMP1 in the WEC against Porsche, Audi, and Toyota would be pretty damn special. BMW were mentioned as considering a 2017 entry. 

F1 wouldn't be able to produce anything to rival that with the teams left. 

Go online and read the criticism of fans with regards Mercedes - this year was a total snooze fest. Hamilton won the championship with three races to go and went partying giving Rosberg a chance to win a few races.

The cost of the engines lies in the R&D ... it's a barrier to entry for independent engine manufacturers. The Mercedes works team engine is different from the customer engine that Williams uses - Williams don't get the full software package so can't tweak performance the way Mercedes can.

Apparently Mercedes have a major performance boost for next year so expect more of the same. The viewing figures say it all.

To be fair, those who criticised Mercedes the loudest also have eye holes in their bed sheets.

chillidoggy

I'm sure Bernie said a few years ago that F1 without Ferrari would be unthinkable. They've threatened to leave F1 before, and never did.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

Go online and read the criticism of fans with regards Mercedes - this year was a total snooze fest. Hamilton won the championship with three races to go and went partying giving Rosberg a chance to win a few races.

The cost of the engines lies in the R&D ... it's a barrier to entry for independent engine manufacturers. The Mercedes works team engine is different from the customer engine that Williams uses - Williams don't get the full software package so can't tweak performance the way Mercedes can.

Apparently Mercedes have a major performance boost for next year so expect more of the same. The viewing figures say it all.

The fans bitched because it was a snoozefest victory for Mercedes. I agree with them. A dominant front team isn't what is holding F1 back though. Bernie can whine about the engines all he likes. It's his incompetent management that has brought us to this point. It isn't the fault of the two leading teams, it's the fault of the useless fuckers at the top who have sat on their hands from everything to car technology to online access and done fuck all. 

If you scrap the hybrids, then you go back to old school engines. Certain defenders of F1 keep talking about how they're the most technologically advanced cars about, the pinnacle of motorsport, and it's complete cock. How on earth can you have change in a motorsport formula when you have a historic payment system for instance? It's completely idiotic. 

Bernie needs Mercedes and Ferrari in F1 a lot more than they need to be in F1 now. Yes, Merc needed the F1 boost to the image. Now I think they're strong enough to go further without Bernie's circus. Hamilton joining Ferrari would be motorsport news of the year #1: a Merc or Ferrari LMP1 car would be #2. 

Heartfeltdawn

Garthy said:

To be fair, those who criticised Mercedes the loudest also have eye holes in their bed sheets.

Having pissed in those bed sheets first. 

stickyfiddle

To me, the various race series should be as follows:

- F1: Fastest cars on the planet. Open wheels, open cockpits, massive tyres and REALLY IMPORTANTLY... single-plane front and rear wings and crappy spec-diffusers otherwise let them have at it for engine development. Every engine team can spend what they like but must also make identical engines available on the open market to up to 5 teams for 20m a year. Everyone gets 5m per race from Bernie just for turning up then extra cash for winning, because let's be honest, without the teams there's no revenue for anyone. It ain't football where if Man City went bust there's another 20 really good football teams who could take their place IN EVERY WESTERN COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

- WEC: Most efficient endurance cars possible. Get to the end of 6 / 12 / 24 hours in front of the other bloke by any means possible. Not far off what they have right now.

- Formula E: Techie shit. Whatever will be in the next Tesla or whatever. Electric only, battery swapping, car swapping, fast charging, whatever. Just don't give anyone 100,000V up the bum.

- WRC: Hot hatches off road. Less grippy tyres so they can't push quite so hard and get much more sideways. You have to make minimum 5,000 of the exact model you want to rally, save for roll cages and fire extinguishers.

- Touring cars: Fast saloons with basic modification only permitted for safety and to make the durable enough to hit each other a bit and ride curbs. You have to make minimum 5,000 of the exact model you want to race, save for roll cages and fire extinguishers.

rolls1392

Agree with stickfiddles post. Got to be better than what is served up now. So bored!!!!

sinbaadi

stickyfiddle said:

To me, the various race series should be as follows:

- F1: Fastest cars on the planet. Open wheels, open cockpits, massive tyres and REALLY IMPORTANTLY... single-plane front and rear wings and crappy spec-diffusers otherwise let them have at it for engine development. Every engine team can spend what they like but must also make identical engines available on the open market to up to 5 teams for 20m a year. Everyone gets 5m per race from Bernie just for turning up then extra cash for winning, because let's be honest, without the teams there's no revenue for anyone. It ain't football where if Man City went bust there's another 20 really good football teams who could take their place IN EVERY WESTERN COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

- WEC: Most efficient endurance cars possible. Get to the end of 6 / 12 / 24 hours in front of the other bloke by any means possible. Not far off what they have right now.

- Formula E: Techie shit. Whatever will be in the next Tesla or whatever. Electric only, battery swapping, car swapping, fast charging, whatever. Just don't give anyone 100,000V up the bum.

- WRC: Hot hatches off road. Less grippy tyres so they can't push quite so hard and get much more sideways. You have to make minimum 5,000 of the exact model you want to rally, save for roll cages and fire extinguishers.

- Touring cars: Fast saloons with basic modification only permitted for safety and to make the durable enough to hit each other a bit and ride curbs. You have to make minimum 5,000 of the exact model you want to race, save for roll cages and fire extinguishers.

F1 cars will struggle to be the fastest on the planet if you reduce the aero so much.  In my opinion they should not need to have the fastest cars on the planet to be the elite class, so I totally agree with you.  The problem is that the hierarchy is very much dictated by lap-time.  And actually the new regs will increase the downforce, not reduce it.  I also think that the minnow teams probably do not bring any money to the table, and they should have to do something to earn it, not just be on the grid.  The problem is that it takes far too much money for, say, a GP2 team to start in F1, but unless F1 becomes a spec-series like GP2, that will always be the case.  Even with a spec diffuser, and a claiming rule for engines, the money it would take to match any of the established teams will be vast.

I quite like the idea of going back to homologation for the actual cars they will rally or take touring car rallying, not just the shell, but the costs could be astronomical.   I'd make WRC a RWD class, but again "faster is better".

stickyfiddle

sinbaadi said:

stickyfiddle said:

To me, the various race series should be as follows:

- F1: Fastest cars on the planet. Open wheels, open cockpits, massive tyres and REALLY IMPORTANTLY... single-plane front and rear wings and crappy spec-diffusers otherwise let them have at it for engine development. Every engine team can spend what they like but must also make identical engines available on the open market to up to 5 teams for 20m a year. Everyone gets 5m per race from Bernie just for turning up then extra cash for winning, because let's be honest, without the teams there's no revenue for anyone. It ain't football where if Man City went bust there's another 20 really good football teams who could take their place IN EVERY WESTERN COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

- WEC: Most efficient endurance cars possible. Get to the end of 6 / 12 / 24 hours in front of the other bloke by any means possible. Not far off what they have right now.

- Formula E: Techie shit. Whatever will be in the next Tesla or whatever. Electric only, battery swapping, car swapping, fast charging, whatever. Just don't give anyone 100,000V up the bum.

- WRC: Hot hatches off road. Less grippy tyres so they can't push quite so hard and get much more sideways. You have to make minimum 5,000 of the exact model you want to rally, save for roll cages and fire extinguishers.

- Touring cars: Fast saloons with basic modification only permitted for safety and to make the durable enough to hit each other a bit and ride curbs. You have to make minimum 5,000 of the exact model you want to race, save for roll cages and fire extinguishers.

F1 cars will struggle to be the fastest on the planet if you reduce the aero so much.  In my opinion they should not need to have the fastest cars on the planet to be the elite class, so I totally agree with you.  The problem is that the hierarchy is very much dictated by lap-time.  And actually the new regs will increase the downforce, not reduce it.  I also think that the minnow teams probably do not bring any money to the table, and they should have to do something to earn it, not just be on the grid.  The problem is that it takes far too much money for, say, a GP2 team to start in F1, but unless F1 becomes a spec-series like GP2, that will always be the case.  Even with a spec diffuser, and a claiming rule for engines, the money it would take to match any of the established teams will be vast.

I quite like the idea of going back to homologation for the actual cars they will rally or take touring car rallying, not just the shell, but the costs could be astronomical.   I'd make WRC a RWD class, but again "faster is better".

No problem - just give them big sticky tyres and tonnes of power. What they lose in corners they'll make up for in the straights, and we'll get tonnes of overtakes because the braking zones will be huge.

As for money, I'm not proposing the little guys should get given enough to match Ferrari and Merc and their global corporation marketing budgets, just that they get enough that they can actually afford to take all their gear around the world every year and pay the people they need to run a team. Cos half the grid are struggling just to do that much at the moment.

I'm with you on rear-drive WRC. Sort the men from the boys and then some

The problem is motorsport has got way into the realms of "faster=better" with no consideration for any other factors.

Fretwired

BBC dumps F1 .. ITV to bid for contract .. sad news. Not sure if I can be abothered watching 2016.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/12056980/BBC-set-to-dump-Formula-One-three-years-early-with-ITV-poised-to-take-over-from-next-season.html

Heartfeltdawn

stickyfiddle said:

To me, the various race series should be as follows:

- F1: Fastest cars on the planet. Open wheels, open cockpits, massive tyres and REALLY IMPORTANTLY... single-plane front and rear wings and crappy spec-diffusers otherwise let them have at it for engine development. Every engine team can spend what they like but must also make identical engines available on the open market to up to 5 teams for 20m a year. Everyone gets 5m per race from Bernie just for turning up then extra cash for winning, because let's be honest, without the teams there's no revenue for anyone. It ain't football where if Man City went bust there's another 20 really good football teams who could take their place IN EVERY WESTERN COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

- WEC: Most efficient endurance cars possible. Get to the end of 6 / 12 / 24 hours in front of the other bloke by any means possible. Not far off what they have right now.

- Formula E: Techie shit. Whatever will be in the next Tesla or whatever. Electric only, battery swapping, car swapping, fast charging, whatever. Just don't give anyone 100,000V up the bum.

- WRC: Hot hatches off road. Less grippy tyres so they can't push quite so hard and get much more sideways. You have to make minimum 5,000 of the exact model you want to rally, save for roll cages and fire extinguishers.

- Touring cars: Fast saloons with basic modification only permitted for safety and to make the durable enough to hit each other a bit and ride curbs. You have to make minimum 5,000 of the exact model you want to race, save for roll cages and fire extinguishers.

Interesting notions. With F1, if you remove the aero elements then it's giving up on the idea of being the premium technology formula. I'm fine with that but some fans keep perpetuating this myth (watch an LMP1 car go through the chicanes at Monza versus an F1 car and you'll see the difference aero makes). By focusing on the engines and keeping the aero basic, perhaps there is an opportunity missed for something equivalent to the balance of performance in other racing series. Imagine that you have Ferrari with a great engine and shit aero doing combat with a Williams with a poorer engine but better aero. On some tracks one will dominate and vice versa. It still does nothing to eradicate the financial mismatch within teams in terms of basic cash payout each year (historic payments etc).

WEC: it's been awesome this year. Simply brilliant. 

The WRC suffers because it's not spectator friendly at all and is hard to make TV friendly. This is why motocross is now gaining in popularity. Less grippy tyres = more crashes = more costs for teams in a racing series that doesn't exactly swim with cash. 

Formula E needs better promotion. Much better. The races themselves are very decent. 

Touring cars = in terms of Britain, it's been excellent this year. The WTCC is tedious. The cars can barely take any hits without conking out. The TCR International Series is astoundingly boring (only six drivers competed in every round - suggests a lot of chopping and changing and money juggling). If people want a cheap series that is full of racing from green to flag, then rip off the Aussie Racing Cars format which has provided the most ridiculously fun racing I've seen for years. It's like watching a Ramones album turned into motorsport. 

Heartfeltdawn

stickyfiddle said:

I'm with you on rear-drive WRC. Sort the men from the boys and then some

No need to go RWD. The Quattro didn't make the WRC boring. Walter Rohrl was just as much a man in a Quattro as he was in a Lancia 037

boogieman

Fretwired;903162" said:

BBC dumps F1 .. ITV to bid for contract .. sad news. Not sure if I can be abothered watching 2016.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/12056980/BBC-set-to-dump-Formula-One-three-years-early-with-ITV-poised-to-take-over-from-next-season.html

If ITV get F1 it'll be crap. Memories of "We're just going for a quick ad break, you won't miss a thing!"

"Welcome back. Maldonado has taken out Hamilton,Vettel and Alonso. So Button now leads the field, but nothing much else went on during the break".