The F1 thread

stickyfiddle

lewism said:

Hadn’t read about Honda ignoring the three engine rule but having done a bit of digging it makes it look like they may be sacrificing Torro Rosso’s season this year to make sure they have a reasonable engine for Red Bull next year - unless they really think there’ll be a magic upgrade soon that means they’ll blitz the field from the back row after the inevitable 35 place grid penalties.

That wouldn't surprise me at all. I can well imagine Mateschitz waiving the 30m Honda were paying to McLaren in return for an engine upgrade every time a new iteration is available, with an understanding that both teams will run Honda next season providing they can get over a certain level of bhp and reliability by the end of the season.

Which, frankly, is exactly what McLaren should have done for the last 3 years...

lewism

A very good point, and makes a mockery of the cost saving initiative. I do worry that at the last race, there won’t be a car on the grid that doesn’t have a penalty applied and that won’t exactly do the credibility of F1any favours. Williams might only have used 3 engines by the point the last race starts but unfortunately, based on their performance so far, they’ll still be trundling around Monaco wondering where everyone else is.

Garthy

lewism said:

Hadn’t read about Honda ignoring the three engine rule but having done a bit of digging it makes it look like they may be sacrificing Torro Rosso’s season this year to make sure they have a reasonable engine for Red Bull next year - unless they really think there’ll be a magic upgrade soon that means they’ll blitz the field from the back row after the inevitable 35 place grid penalties.

They'll have to sacrifice STRs season as they've lost so much time, not that STR mind as they've embraced Honda with gusto. As soon as the deal was struck they sent Honda spare cars to Milton Keynes and Sakura and the latest gearboxes and drivetrains as soon as they were available. They've also embedded Honda engineers onto the STR chassis development team.

stickyfiddle

Garthy said:

lewism said:

Hadn’t read about Honda ignoring the three engine rule but having done a bit of digging it makes it look like they may be sacrificing Torro Rosso’s season this year to make sure they have a reasonable engine for Red Bull next year - unless they really think there’ll be a magic upgrade soon that means they’ll blitz the field from the back row after the inevitable 35 place grid penalties.

They'll have to sacrifice STRs season as they've lost so much time, not that STR mind as they've embraced Honda with gusto. As soon as the deal was struck they sent Honda spare cars to Milton Keynes and Sakura and the latest gearboxes and drivetrains as soon as they were available. They've also embedded Honda engineers onto the STR chassis development team.

Yeah. The thing is, this year's TR chassis is obviously halfway decent, so starting each race with penalties may not even be the end of the world. You have to assume they'll still beat the Williams and Saubers at least, and there's usually a couple of DNFs, so if the Honda starts besting Renault's power output they might still get good points on a semi-regular basis, especially as other teams start getting penalties towards the end of the year. 

Which of course all becomes irrelevant if it gets Red Bull an extra 50 hp for next year.

GuyR

lewism said:

A very good point, and makes a mockery of the cost saving initiative. I do worry that at the last race, there won’t be a car on the grid that doesn’t have a penalty applied and that won’t exactly do the credibility of F1any favours. Williams might only have used 3 engines by the point the last race starts but unfortunately, based on their performance so far, they’ll still be trundling around Monaco wondering where everyone else is.

Williams have just completed race distance at Bahrain.

prowla

I have to say that I found the race boring and Bottas never looked like he was going to get past Vettel.

Garthy

GuyR said:

lewism said:

A very good point, and makes a mockery of the cost saving initiative. I do worry that at the last race, there won’t be a car on the grid that doesn’t have a penalty applied and that won’t exactly do the credibility of F1any favours. Williams might only have used 3 engines by the point the last race starts but unfortunately, based on their performance so far, they’ll still be trundling around Monaco wondering where everyone else is.

Williams have just completed race distance at Bahrain.

I know Stroll and Sorotkin are slow but Jeez....

Fretwired

prowla said:

I have to say that I found the race boring and Bottas never looked like he was going to get past Vettel.

Bottas would have difficulty passing a London bus. Ricciardo to Merc for 2019.

HAL9000

As an aside, I went to Brands Hatch yesterday for the BTCC opener. More excitement in one day than in a whole season of Formula 1.

not_the_dj

HAL9000 said:

As an aside, I went to Brands Hatch yesterday for the BTCC opener. More excitement in one day than in a whole season of Formula 1.

Watched it on the TV, that second race was fantastic!

Garthy

HAL9000 said:

As an aside, I went to Brands Hatch yesterday for the BTCC opener. More excitement in one day than in a whole season of Formula 1.

I went to the banger racing in Aldershot- more excitement than a  whole season of BTCC and a better standards of driving too.

PC_Dave

Garthy said:

HAL9000 said:

As an aside, I went to Brands Hatch yesterday for the BTCC opener. More excitement in one day than in a whole season of Formula 1.

I went to the banger racing in Aldershot- more excitement than a  whole season of BTCC and a better standards of driving too.

Isn’t that just driving round the town centre? 

HAL9000

Garthy said:

HAL9000 said:

As an aside, I went to Brands Hatch yesterday for the BTCC opener. More excitement in one day than in a whole season of Formula 1.

I went to the banger racing in Aldershot- more excitement than a  whole season of BTCC and a better standards of driving too.

My son and his girlfriend went to the banging racing in Aldershot last weekend and said how entertaining it was. They’re encouraging me to go with them next time.

chillidoggy

I agree about banger racing. I used to take my lad to the track at Dover to watch them. I remember one race where they were all driving Reliant Robins, which was hilarious, and then there's the caravan race.

Racing for rednecks, but great fun to watch!

Fretwired

China could be interesting. Weather forecast is heavy rain for qualifying with a dry race. Should shake the field up a bit.

chillidoggy

Splendid!

stickyfiddle

Last wet Quali saw Stroll 4th on merit. Paddy must be hoping he can repeat that! 

And speaking of Paddy, is he actually all that? He's been at teams during some very successful times, but he always struck me as not necessarily being the leader of that success. At Merc he inherited a great car from Brawn, and clearly the basis of the phenomenal team (and engine programme...) that they are today was entirely built under Brawn planning for the hybrid era, and Paddy arrived just in time to oversee the astonishing cars they've had from 2014 onwards. Obviously he & Wolf have led the team through a great period, but i'm not sure Paddy himself can take much initial credit there.

He was at McLaren through a lot of success, but that was the era of the Newey cars, who is widely regarded as the driver of success in the late 90's. Equally, the 2007 car was Pat Fry-designed, and while the title-winning 2008 car was Paddy's, it wasn't a major change from the car they had the year before. When the rules changed in 2009 everything went to shit under Paddy's control. 

I'm not saying this is conclusive by a long shot, but I do wonder..


**

Also, while googling to confirm the above, I found this photo of McLarens from 2007-2011 which shows how ludicrously big they've become. As I understand the current Mercedes is even longer still. 

Cols

Certainly the first Williams produced under his watch has been an unmitigated disaster - visibly lacking in grip and balance.  Precisely the kind of attributes with which a driver lacking experience of F1 cars is going to struggle badly.

With the Merc engine and plenty of funding from Pop Stroll, Sirotkin and Martini, there really is no excuse.

That said, Lowe’s pedigree is impeccable; the mastermind behind the active suspension on the 92-93 Williams, a long stretch with McLaren and then Technical Director of Merc during their most dominant era.  Granted he inherited the structure from Ross Brawn, but he maintained that momentum for the next 4 years.

stickyfiddle

Cols said:

Certainly the first Williams produced under his watch has been an unmitigated disaster - visibly lacking in grip and balance.  Precisely the kind of attributes with which a driver lacking experience of F1 cars is going to struggle badly.

With the Merc engine and plenty of funding from Pop Stroll, Sirotkin and Martini, there really is no excuse.

That said, Lowe’s pedigree is impeccable; the mastermind behind the active suspension on the 92-93 Williams, a long stretch with McLaren and then Technical Director of Merc during their most dominant era.  Granted he inherited the structure from Ross Brawn, but he maintained that momentum for the next 4 years.

Obviously i'm not suggesting he's clueless - clearly he's a talented guy. I just wonder if his real skill lies in managing and improving an existing "good thing", rather than creating something from nothing, which is basically his job at Williams. 

I really want to see him succeed, but to be the only team slower this year than last it's looking really bad

Cols

First time he’s stepped into a new team as the boss?  Pat Symonds left the team in good shape, so it could be that Lowe went too far, too fast in trying to remould things to his way of thinking.

Alternatively, he could be a victim of internal politics.  I’m sure there must’ve been a few people who had their eye on the job and were disgruntled by his arrival.  Or he could just be unlucky.

In any case, I hope things turn around quickly for Williams.  Pop Stroll’s body language seemed ‘impatient’ in Bahrain.