The F1 thread

Fretwired

ZenOvertone said:

Didn't SV just cane it into the pit lane entry once he'd crossed the white line (so off the main track), then slow down for the inner pit section then cane it again out of the pits, then match the VSC speed when joining the main track?  A loophole in the rules surely this time that was exploited well? (and many teams s/w models too)

The pit lane should be closed during a VSC.

PC_Dave

Fretwired said:

ZenOvertone said:

Didn't SV just cane it into the pit lane entry once he'd crossed the white line (so off the main track), then slow down for the inner pit section then cane it again out of the pits, then match the VSC speed when joining the main track?  A loophole in the rules surely this time that was exploited well? (and many teams s/w models too)

The pit lane should be closed during a VSC.

The VSC shouldn’t be allowed.

thumpingrug

There certainly should be no advantage to be gained by driving through the pit lane during a safety car period whether its virtual or real.   Regardless of software issues at Mercedes providing the wrong data, before his pit stop Lewis and Kimi were ahead of vettle, they came out behind but at a distance that should have meant that set dropped in behind them after his.  This did not happen due to a significant advantage being gained by him pitting during the safety car.  It seems wrong.      However whats wronger is that despite having the faster car Lewis wasn't able to get close enough to try an overtake.  The design of the cars needs a serious reconsideration to provide for actual racing.  That was a very dull and processional race.

siremoon

Fretwired said:

The pit lane should be closed during a VSC.

Problem with that is it prevents any cars which sustained repairable damage (puncture, broken front wing etc) in the incident which caused the VSC from getting repaired at the earliest opportunity.  So you force a team in that position to immediately retire an otherwise repairable car or attempt to drive round with the damage for the duration of the VSC with the risk of further incidents.  I don't think a rule that forces more retirements or encourages cars to circulate with damage is going to improve things.  A better answer imo if you consider this to be unfair would be a 5 or 10 sec penalty at the pit box for pitting under VSC/safety car.

Having said that I don't see this as any more unfair than a real safety car wiping out a big lead that someone has spent the whole race creating and destroying their race strategy.  Both are just luck as to where you are on the track, your track position and what your pit stop strategy is when the incident happens .  If Vettel had already done his stop then he would have gained nothing.  It should be pretty obvious that if the cars are going round slower then the time loss from a pit stop is proportionately less.  I haven't seen Mercedes complaining about it - they know it was luck and part of the swings and roundabouts of the VSC/safety car. 

Fretwired

siremoon said:

Fretwired said:

The pit lane should be closed during a VSC.

Problem with that is it prevents any cars which sustained repairable damage (puncture, broken front wing etc) in the incident which caused the VSC from getting repaired at the earliest opportunity.  So you force a team in that position to immediately retire an otherwise repairable car or attempt to drive round with the damage for the duration of the VSC with the risk of further incidents.  I don't think a rule that forces more retirements or encourages cars to circulate with damage is going to improve things.  A better answer imo if you consider this to be unfair would be a 5 or 10 sec penalty at the pit box for pitting under VSC/safety car.

Having said that I don't see this as any more unfair than a real safety car wiping out a big lead that someone has spent the whole race creating and destroying their race strategy.  Both are just luck as to where you are on the track, your track position and what your pit stop strategy is when the incident happens .  If Vettel had already done his stop then he would have gained nothing.  It should be pretty obvious that if the cars are going round slower then the time loss from a pit stop is proportionately less.  I haven't seen Mercedes complaining about it - they know it was luck and part of the swings and roundabouts of the VSC/safety car. 

OK, fair point. Cars damaged in an incident can enter the pit, but the likes of Vettel whose strategy was dependent on a VSC cannot enter the pit to change tyres, or if it is allowed they must give back any places they make. No driver should be able to get an advantage under the VSC.

Heartfeltdawn

The VSC came from WEC and there has been criticism of it's use there. I don't think there is much you can do to alter that. It can help one and hinder another but that's all part of the luck, good and bad, of racing. A VSC can help you as can a full course yellow. 

One possible solution could be to work out a minimum pit stop time if you do pit under a VSC. In the Blancpain GT Sprint Series, the races are one hour with a driver change. Occasionally one driver will do a whole stint due to injury or illness to the other driver. In that situation, there is a minimum pit stop time to simulate the time taken to change drivers in addition to tyres. I have no idea what the formula for a minimum pit stop time in F1 under the VSC would be but I doubt it'd be easy to work out. 

Processional was my verdict on yesterday. It says a lot that you have a faster car in second who ends up turning down the power to protect the engine. An excellent qualifying session was good but that counts for nothing if the main event is dull. It's like congratulating Usain Bolt for a fabulous warm up before he goes and runs a 20 second 100m. 

Still, two weeks until the BTCC and some proper racing  starts

boogieman

Ferrari just seem really good at exploiting the undercut, they profited a few times last season as well. I don’t see it as cheating, it was just a good call on their behalf to get Vettel in. It was made even better by Merc’s drop off, they should’ve told Lewis what was happening: judging by the radio conversation he wasn’t kept in the loop. 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

The VSC came from WEC and there has been criticism of it's use there. I don't think there is much you can do to alter that. It can help one and hinder another but that's all part of the luck, good and bad, of racing. A VSC can help you as can a full course yellow. 

One possible solution could be to work out a minimum pit stop time if you do pit under a VSC. In the Blancpain GT Sprint Series, the races are one hour with a driver change. Occasionally one driver will do a whole stint due to injury or illness to the other driver. In that situation, there is a minimum pit stop time to simulate the time taken to change drivers in addition to tyres. I have no idea what the formula for a minimum pit stop time in F1 under the VSC would be but I doubt it'd be easy to work out. 

Processional was my verdict on yesterday. It says a lot that you have a faster car in second who ends up turning down the power to protect the engine. An excellent qualifying session was good but that counts for nothing if the main event is dull. It's like congratulating Usain Bolt for a fabulous warm up before he goes and runs a 20 second 100m. 

Still, two weeks until the BTCC and some proper racing  starts

If you look at Hamilton's quali lap Kimi was actually faster along the straits. According to Vettel the pole lap was down to Hamilton not the engine mode and the 7 tenths was made up in two corners (Ferrari have the data to prove this). In race trim the Ferrari is on a par with Mercedes (Hamilton thinks this is the case).

The problem with yesterday's race is the track ... boring and impossible to overtake.

chillidoggy

Well done to Ferrari, Vettel did well. But Albert Park is simply a crap track, only beaten by Hungary in my view,and aside from a Ferrari win, it wasn't the most entertaining race by a long chalk.

WTF was going on in the Haas pit, though? I expect they'll be some serious arse-kicking going on.

boogieman

chillidoggy said:

Well done to Ferrari, Vettel did well. But Albert Park is simply a crap track, only beaten by Hungary in my view,and aside from a Ferrari win, it wasn't the most entertaining race by a long chalk.

WTF was going on in the Haas pit, though? I expect they'll be some serious arse-kicking going on.

Supposedly a problem with the guns or a heat related thing, rather than the crew. Such a shame, they were doing well till then and it was good to see them up near the front.  

stickyfiddle

Lovely to see Grosjean comforting the pit crew guy after. After spending his early years being a twat he's turned into a really decent bloke by all accounts. Very glad to see him near the front again.

It wouldn't surprise me to see him take Kimi's seat next year (assuming RB and Merc both hold station, which is the likeliest option, I think)

PC_Dave

boogieman said:

chillidoggy said:

Well done to Ferrari, Vettel did well. But Albert Park is simply a crap track, only beaten by Hungary in my view,and aside from a Ferrari win, it wasn't the most entertaining race by a long chalk.

WTF was going on in the Haas pit, though? I expect they'll be some serious arse-kicking going on.

Supposedly a problem with the guns or a heat related thing, rather than the crew. Such a shame, they were doing well till then and it was good to see them up near the front.  

Apparently cross threaded wheel nuts.

Gutted for them - let’s hope they keep that good form going forwards! 

boogieman

PC_Dave said:

boogieman said:

chillidoggy said:

Well done to Ferrari, Vettel did well. But Albert Park is simply a crap track, only beaten by Hungary in my view,and aside from a Ferrari win, it wasn't the most entertaining race by a long chalk.

WTF was going on in the Haas pit, though? I expect they'll be some serious arse-kicking going on.

Supposedly a problem with the guns or a heat related thing, rather than the crew. Such a shame, they were doing well till then and it was good to see them up near the front.  

Apparently cross threaded wheel nuts.

Gutted for them - let’s hope they keep that good form going forwards! 

Hadn’t seen that explanation, makes more sense than faulty guns. Hope they keep up the form too, always good to have another decent team in the mix.

How dodgy did Williams look? I hope it’s just early season woes and they get back in shape soon. 

Cols

 Cue Helmut Marko whining about the engines again, and how it’s terribly unfair that Mercedes have such a super engine.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/marko-mercedes-playing-with-everyone/

I can’t help but notice that the Mercedes customer teams are languishing in the lower half of the grid.  If the Merc engine is as dominant as Marko thinks, Williams and Force India must have screwed up magnificently on the chassis front.

Fretwired

Cols said:

 Cue Helmut Marko whining about the engines again, and how it’s terribly unfair that Mercedes have such a super engine.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/marko-mercedes-playing-with-everyone/

I can’t help but notice that the Mercedes customer teams are languishing in the lower half of the grid.  If the Merc engine is as dominant as Marko thinks, Williams and Force India must have screwed up magnificently on the chassis front.

I think he's moaning about modes .... do the Merc customers have the same modes? Interesting comment from Vettel who having looked at the telemetry of Hamilton's pole lap stated the 7 tenths difference to Kimi was mostly down to Hamilton and not some special mode.

Cols

Fretwired said:

Cols said:

 Cue Helmut Marko whining about the engines again, and how it’s terribly unfair that Mercedes have such a super engine.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/marko-mercedes-playing-with-everyone/

I can’t help but notice that the Mercedes customer teams are languishing in the lower half of the grid.  If the Merc engine is as dominant as Marko thinks, Williams and Force India must have screwed up magnificently on the chassis front.

I think he's moaning about modes .... do the Merc customers have the same modes? Interesting comment from Vettel who having looked at the telemetry of Hamilton's pole lap stated the 7 tenths difference to Kimi was mostly down to Hamilton and not some special mode.

AFAIK, the FIA issued a directive earlier in the year stating that customer engines had to be the same as the works unit in terms of hardware, software and operating conditions.  This would suggest to me that the customer teams have any ‘party modes’ available to them.

Apart from anything else, it would probably suit Merc a whole lot better to have Williams and Force India further up the grid and taking points off Ferrari and Red Bull.

FX_Munkee

Fretwired said:

Cols said:

 Cue Helmut Marko whining about the engines again, and how it’s terribly unfair that Mercedes have such a super engine.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/marko-mercedes-playing-with-everyone/

I can’t help but notice that the Mercedes customer teams are languishing in the lower half of the grid.  If the Merc engine is as dominant as Marko thinks, Williams and Force India must have screwed up magnificently on the chassis front.

I think he's moaning about modes .... do the Merc customers have the same modes? Interesting comment from Vettel who having looked at the telemetry of Hamilton's pole lap stated the 7 tenths difference to Kimi was mostly down to Hamilton and not some special mode.

Entirely believable, Hamilton was slower than the Ferrari on the straights, he gained over 0.6 of a second in the corners by carrying more speed. Probably more downforce on the Merc but also a bit more driver skill.

Also agree about Grosjean consoling the mechanic, that was good to see.

Garthy

Cols said:

 Cue Helmut Marko whining about the engines again, and how it’s terribly unfair that Mercedes have such a super engine.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/marko-mercedes-playing-with-everyone/

I can’t help but notice that the Mercedes customer teams are languishing in the lower half of the grid.  If the Merc engine is as dominant as Marko thinks, Williams and Force India must have screwed up magnificently on the chassis front.

The rules are the same for everyone. It's because of this poisonous twerp that Renault have told RBR to do one at the end of this season and neither Ferrari nor Merc will supply RBR and why Merc GAVE engines to Manor.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

If you look at Hamilton's quali lap Kimi was actually faster along the straits. According to Vettel the pole lap was down to Hamilton not the engine mode and the 7 tenths was made up in two corners (Ferrari have the data to prove this). In race trim the Ferrari is on a par with Mercedes (Hamilton thinks this is the case).

The problem with yesterday's race is the track ... boring and impossible to overtake.

Once we have a race where it's the Ferrari dealing with turbulence from being stuck behind the Merc, we'll have a better idea of race. My use of 'faster' was based purely on qualifying time so not totally inaccurate. It's interesting to note that Hamilton's fastest lap during the race on lap 50 was still slightly quicker than Vettel's best lap time set on lap 53 despite staring up Vettel's exhaust and on tyres that were 7 laps older. 

 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

If you look at Hamilton's quali lap Kimi was actually faster along the straits. According to Vettel the pole lap was down to Hamilton not the engine mode and the 7 tenths was made up in two corners (Ferrari have the data to prove this). In race trim the Ferrari is on a par with Mercedes (Hamilton thinks this is the case).

The problem with yesterday's race is the track ... boring and impossible to overtake.

Once we have a race where it's the Ferrari dealing with turbulence from being stuck behind the Merc, we'll have a better idea of race. My use of 'faster' was based purely on qualifying time so not totally inaccurate. It's interesting to note that Hamilton's fastest lap during the race on lap 50 was still slightly quicker than Vettel's best lap time set on lap 53 despite staring up Vettel's exhaust and on tyres that were 7 laps older. 

 

The Ferrari won't be able to overtake for the same reason as the Merc couldn't which is why Vettel said Ferrari had get quali sorted so they could get on pole. F1 will be in a poor state come the end of the season if Hamilton gets the most poles and converts them from lights to flag into wins. Merc's weakest link is Bottas.