EV batteries. Well this is interesting..yikes

exocet

ThePrettyDamned said:

exocet said:

I’m in Thailand at the moment, I took an internal flight and noticed that they banned the use of “smart cases” with batteries exceeding 100 W/h. I think that equates to a 20,000 mA/h “power bank”. I’m amazed that there hasn’t been a serious airline incident involving lithium battery packs.

They're mostly very safe. Lithium batteries are not new. I carry one just inches from my genitals every day and I don't worry it'll explode. 

There is a counterfeit market that needs addressing, but the core tech isn't the problem. 

Don't get me wrong, I do exactly the same as you but as others have pointed out, there's well engineered stuff which is perfectly safe and there's a whole host of other stuff. 

viz

ThePrettyDamned said:

exocet said:

I’m in Thailand at the moment, I took an internal flight and noticed that they banned the use of “smart cases” with batteries exceeding 100 W/h. I think that equates to a 20,000 mA/h “power bank”. I’m amazed that there hasn’t been a serious airline incident involving lithium battery packs.

They're mostly very safe. Lithium batteries are not new. I carry one just inches from my genitals every day and I don't worry it'll explode. 

. 

I thought those things just used AA batteries. 

exocet

viz said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

exocet said:

I’m in Thailand at the moment, I took an internal flight and noticed that they banned the use of “smart cases” with batteries exceeding 100 W/h. I think that equates to a 20,000 mA/h “power bank”. I’m amazed that there hasn’t been a serious airline incident involving lithium battery packs.

They're mostly very safe. Lithium batteries are not new. I carry one just inches from my genitals every day and I don't worry it'll explode. 

. 

I thought those things just used AA batteries. 

I'm not sure of official definition but I thought it was just a bag / case that had an external USB port and a flying USB lead inside - to which you attach a nice big power bank to charge other stuff with.

roundthebend

ThePrettyDamned said:

exocet said:

I’m in Thailand at the moment, I took an internal flight and noticed that they banned the use of “smart cases” with batteries exceeding 100 W/h. I think that equates to a 20,000 mA/h “power bank”. I’m amazed that there hasn’t been a serious airline incident involving lithium battery packs.

They're mostly very safe. Lithium batteries are not new. I carry one just inches from my genitals every day and I don't worry it'll explode. 

There is a counterfeit market that needs addressing, but the core tech isn't the problem. 

I'm not certain of the facts but I believe there are many cases of seemingly high quality units developing thermal runaway problems. Electric cars being the headline grabber because those batteries are huge and the failures are catastrophic.

What I'm not sure about is whether the failure is down to the battery self-destructing or if some external factors are the cause - piercing, impact, incorrect charging.

We have an EV. Recently bought it. I think the risk is minimal, and we've bought a Nissan Leaf which is long proven tech and manufacturing.

There's a real problem for the industry with misinformation though. Because it's a grey definition. If one EV self-combusts sure to poor manufacturing of the battery, then is it misinformation to say that EV batteries are a potential ticking time bomb? I think it is, but there are plenty of people who say you can't argue with the facts (of a small number of anecdotal incidents).

JEM

This seems rather timely.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68130432

ICBM

exocet said:

I’m in Thailand at the moment, I took an internal flight and noticed that they banned the use of “smart cases” with batteries exceeding 100 W/h. I think that equates to a 20,000 mA/h “power bank”. I’m amazed that there hasn’t been a serious airline incident involving lithium battery packs.

There has - fortunately (but not for the two crew) it was a cargo plane not a passenger airliner, and missed buildings when it came down.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6

victorludorum

JEM said:

This seems rather timely.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68130432

Maybe if the Lords had to do a normal job that actually required the daily use of an affordable car they'd see that it's not that straightforward.

Adey

ThePrettyDamned said:

exocet said:

I’m in Thailand at the moment, I took an internal flight and noticed that they banned the use of “smart cases” with batteries exceeding 100 W/h. I think that equates to a 20,000 mA/h “power bank”. I’m amazed that there hasn’t been a serious airline incident involving lithium battery packs.

They're mostly very safe. Lithium batteries are not new. I carry one just inches from my genitals every day and I don't worry it'll explode. 

Stand back! His genitals are going to explode!

Or did I get the inference wrong?

Sporky

victorludorum said:

JEM said:

This seems rather timely.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68130432

Maybe if the Lords had to do a normal job that actually required the daily use of an affordable car they'd see that it's not that straightforward.

Theyre asking for action against misinformation in the press, not for poor people to be forced to buy Porsche Taycans. 

darthed1981

roundthebend said:

I'm not certain of the facts but I believe...

No offense mate, but seriously, that one statement is indicative of the issue with these constant threads on EV batteries etc.

The people who are in full possession of the facts made a decision that EVs are a part, a significant part, of moving forwards with dealing with global CO2 emissions.

The scaremongering in the media is quite disproportionate to the actual risk.  No technology is perfect or risk free, but we need to get on with it.

You have however come up with a definitive statement that could preface 99% of all comments posted online.

crunchman

darthed1981 said:

roundthebend said:

I'm not certain of the facts but I believe...

No offense mate, but seriously, that one statement is indicative of the issue with these constant threads on EV batteries etc.

The people who are in full possession of the facts made a decision that EVs are a part, a significant part, of moving forwards with dealing with global CO2 emissions.

The scaremongering in the media is quite disproportionate to the actual risk.  No technology is perfect or risk free, but we need to get on with it.

You have however come up with a definitive statement that could preface 99% of all comments posted online.

The best way to reduce emissions from transport is to reduce the number of car journeys of any kind.

The problem is that the government is too gutless to introduce measures to do that.

VimFuego

fucking hell, if you think the vitriol in the media and on social media is bad about EV's, wait till a government tried to reduce car journeys. 

Danny1969

I think we need to accept there will be problems and there will be accidents but we have to push on regardless with EV's. There is really no other choice. 

Petrol, gas and diesel are out ... they are the problem

Hydrogen is out .... it's difficult to move and store and  it takes a lot of electric or (worse) gas to make hydrogen. It takes about 45kWh of electric to make 1kg of hydrogen that will power a car for 50 miles ish. Put that 45kWh directly into the EV battery and you will get around 120 miles plus  ..... probably more. Anyone who thinks hydrogen is the way forward is maybe not aware of how it's generated and  / or the maths. 

Nuclear fission powered ? would be possible but extremely dangerous so never gonna happen. 

Steam ? ... well that involves burning something so we are back where we started .. so no

So the people thinking let's carry on with petrol and diesel cars until we figure something better then EV's out are really waiting for us to discover what ?  the secret to nuclear fusion in a very compact form ? Some magic element  that burns with no emissions or gives up electrons more readily than Lithium ? The periodic table is full, we have discovered all the stable elements.  

Electric and Lithium batteries are the only sane choice. It's possible solidstate batteries will develop into a reliable format but it's still lithium, just a solid electrolyte  rather than a gel. Could be more robust and less prone to thermal runaway though. 

It is a massively politically charged subject. Some countries are oil / gas rich and face an uncertain future. Huge companies are going to see their core product decrease in sales by an order of several magnitude. People will be made redundant. There are so many components in an ICE vehicle that are produced by the million that simply aren't needed in an EV. 
There will be arguments over charging. There will be people grinding to a halt running out of charge. People will be tripping over extension cables. There will be house fires caused by the large currents drawn from the mains. There will be battery fires. 

But all the above is better than just carrying on as we are and f#cking the planet to the extent our great grandkids can't live on the surface of the planet.    
In MHO anyway 

darthed1981

VimFuego said:

fucking hell, if you think the vitriol in the media and on social media is bad about EV's, wait till a government tried to reduce car journeys. 

Exactly - the car for many (most?) people in the west literally represents freedom.

Replacing them with non-emitting ones, powered by fuel from wind and other renewables is the least-worst option currently on the table for the UK.

The government recently tried to build one new high-tech railway, it turned into a staggeringly expensive disaster that will give us a really fast route to Birmingham from London... and fuck all else... while the trains merrily join the over-clogged WCML to go... wait for it... slower than the existing trains the rest of the way.

East-West Rail has been a basically essential no-brainer for decades - and is staggering along with no fucking money to finish it off.

Realistically, if we could travel back in time, stop the national crime that was destroying our rail network, we might have a chance of a public transport future.

As it is, no money.

So it's more cars, but different ones.  It really breaks my heart but it's the only option on the table if we don't want to be utterly fucked come 2050.

Emp_Fab

You've got to almost admire the effort the Chinese put in to making fake everything.  From poisonous baby milk formula to exploding batteries, deadly mains-powered things to counterfeits of every product imaginable.

They seem to have the fake market cornered.  It's almost like they don't care.....

 

crunchman

Danny1969 said:

Hydrogen is out .... it's difficult to move and store and  it takes a lot of electric or (worse) gas to make hydrogen. It takes about 45kWh of electric to make 1kg of hydrogen that will power a car for 50 miles ish. Put that 45kWh directly into the EV battery and you will get around 120 miles plus  ..... probably more. Anyone who thinks hydrogen is the way forward is maybe not aware of how it's generated and  / or the maths. 

You keep saying that, but Honda are going in big on Hydrogen:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42796089/2024-honda-cr-v-powered-by-hydrogen-details/

BMW is moving towards hydrogen:

https://autos.yahoo.com/bmw-shifts-focus-hydrogen-power-223026049.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAN75fxgTVRzMhXbVaPhOYqyVS2w1RvazX1FpyTaZqvtHsuefoO8BcijylKCgbhdZrnZ7D0SAFC3p7xukznDflLGKpvMTfPdpg9piBaVg1KW9q0FPYercBRjOXUXSwSmPg1RA_pONWlmnxJELm8ZdxHRsLgDkxw8Blv2kxKYk638W

The issues with hydrogen are solvable, but there just isn't enough available lithium to make all the batteries that would be needed.

roundthebend

darthed1981 said:

roundthebend said:

I'm not certain of the facts but I believe...

No offense mate, but seriously, that one statement is indicative of the issue with these constant threads on EV batteries etc.

The people who are in full possession of the facts made a decision that EVs are a part, a significant part, of moving forwards with dealing with global CO2 emissions.

The scaremongering in the media is quite disproportionate to the actual risk.  No technology is perfect or risk free, but we need to get on with it.

You have however come up with a definitive statement that could preface 99% of all comments posted online.

Interestingly, I wrote my comment as an EV supporter. I'm just saying that I believe there is some evidence of issues that shouldn't be ignored.

Your point is spot on though. There are people who know more than me and the general vibe I get is that they say we should decrease fossil fuel dependency, and EVs offer an alternative that is preferable.

guitarcookie1

Synthetic fuels?

Carry on using your current petrol/diesel vehicles? 

roundthebend

guitarcookie1 said:

Synthetic fuels?

Carry on using your current petrol/diesel vehicles? 

I'm all for it if they work and don't need a ton of dirty energy to manufacture. I know, I know, batteries need a ton of dirty energy to manufacture but once they're built it is possible to charge them from renewable sources.

Thing is, with synthetic fuel and, I think, hydrogen combustion engines..... Why do people cling onto the idea of having to burn stuff? I think that's the biggest cause of resistance to EVs. Most of the arguments against EVs make little sense and I'm sure it's people just clinging onto what they already know - burn burn burn.

If you believe that human CO² output is a major contributor to climate change, then we have to change. And change a lot. It seems people will only change if the perfect solution is given to them.

crunchman

roundthebend said:

If you believe that human CO² output is a major contributor to climate change, then we have to change. And change a lot. It seems people will only change if the perfect solution is given to them.

About 70% of car journeys in this country are under 5 miles.

The perfect solution: