EV batteries. Well this is interesting..yikes

Sporky

crunchman said:

The issues with hydrogen are solvable

It'll always be less efficient to make hydrogen than to put the same energy into a battery - physics dictates that.

Hydrogen may have a part to play in an overall transport strategy, but I'd bet it'll be a small one.

exocet

Sporky said:

crunchman said:

The issues with hydrogen are solvable

It'll always be less efficient to make hydrogen than to put the same energy into a battery - physics dictates that.

Hydrogen may have a part to play in an overall transport strategy, but I'd bet it'll be a small one.

But if we end up using it because it suits specific use cases e.g. HGV, don't we end up with it as a common alternative fuel source anyway...I mean, Diesel used to be for "DERV" only? I agree that it's a terribly inefficient process, but I can see a day when there's  such a glut of renewables and no easy way to store it for use in batteries that we end up creating Hydrogen anyway?

elstoof

There’s 2 types of hydrogen fuel uses, combustion is better suited to shipping, aviation etc, constant high load. Hydrogen fuel cells are an instantly rechargeable battery that would suit personal vehicles better

Sporky

exocet said:

Sporky said:

crunchman said:

The issues with hydrogen are solvable

It'll always be less efficient to make hydrogen than to put the same energy into a battery - physics dictates that.

Hydrogen may have a part to play in an overall transport strategy, but I'd bet it'll be a small one.

But if we end up using it because it suits specific use cases e.g. HGV, don't we end up with it as a common alternative fuel source anyway...

Depends. Are there common vehicles, and accessible fuelling stations? Can regular consumers reliably and safely refill? Does it offer an advantage over battery electric? 

crunchman

Sporky said:

crunchman said:

The issues with hydrogen are solvable

It'll always be less efficient to make hydrogen than to put the same energy into a battery - physics dictates that.

Hydrogen may have a part to play in an overall transport strategy, but I'd bet it'll be a small one.

Solar is the cheapest form of energy.  It has no moving parts to fail.  Extract hydrogen to store the energy when there is surplus solar.

Meanwhile lithium scarcity will cause prices to go through the roof.  The overall cost may well end up being cheaper with hydrogen, even if it's a less efficient process.

You also save a huge amount of money on installing charging points.  Just convert existing filling stations.  Installing millions of charging points and upgrading the grid to cope with them will cost billions.

Edit: storing the surplus intermittent renewable energy by extracting hydrogen will remove the need for expensive batteries on the grid.  The charging/recharging process won't be 100% efficient especially as it will need to convert from AC to DC and back again.  No inverter or rectifier is 100% efficient.  The battery banks would need active cooling as well, which would use more energy.  The batteries will also need regular replacement, adding even more to the cost.

PVO_Dave

I find it so strange how divisive EV's are for people, I've had an EV now since 2019 and the amount of nutters who join the public FB groups to tell others how rubbish their cars are, how dangerous an EV is etc.. I can't imagine joining a group about a petrol/diesel car to tell them the "issues" with it, so weird, imagine getting that bent out of shape about a different kind of car. 

It's been said time and time again, Hydrogen is less efficient for personal vehicles, you're having to use energy to convert hydrogen into electricity to store in batteries/cells, cut out the middleman and just put green energy straight in the battery. 

As for battery fires, when it's not some knock off product, a battery is much less likely to catch on fire, sure it'll be harder to put out if it does, but it's less likely to catch fire in the first place than driving round with 60L+ of flammable liquid. All stuff proven with data, but really seems to upset the short of thinking. 

Sporky

I don't think converting petrol stations from storing petrol to storing hydrogen is a trivial undertaking. Transporting hydrogen isn't like transporting petrol either. 

As I recall, hydrogen is mostly made from fossil fuels. Turning water into hydrogen isn't straightforward IIRC. 

I'm not anti hydrogen as part of a strategy, but it's not a dead simple switch. 

darthed1981

Hydrogen is difficult to move, difficult to store, difficult to produce.  It will always make more sense to use the electricity than use it to create hydrogen, why is everyone so amped on the tech?  It's on no level BETTER than battery EV, it's just different.

The argument that we won't have enough electricity to power EVs... but we WILL to create the same amount of energy from creating hydrogen is so bizarre to challenge belief.

The world has chosen battery EV as it's new vehicle technology, just as it chose ICE over steam and yes... primitive battery EV many years ago.

Why are we still banging on about Lithium shortages when sodium cell gigafactories are now in production and the first sodium powered cars are on the market?  There are other even better technologies in the wings, battery tech is finally going places.

We need a lot more cycling, a lot more walking, but you are trying to convince a nation of obese people who love their cars more than their kids in some cases to give up said cars and run their butts around - in sure and certain knowledge people like them will be trying to kill them every day for the temerity to be on the roads and not doing 60.

It's EVs or no net zero.

darthed1981

Emp_Fab said:

You've got to almost admire the effort the Chinese put in to making fake everything.  From poisonous baby milk formula to exploding batteries, deadly mains-powered things to counterfeits of every product imaginable.

China has a significant lead over the west now in many, if not most, manufacturing technologies.  They used to build things cheaper than we did, now they just plain build them better.

The only reason all the counterfeit stuff comes from the Far East ... is because everything does.

NothingOnTheTele

crunchman said:

roundthebend said:

If you believe that human CO² output is a major contributor to climate change, then we have to change. And change a lot. It seems people will only change if the perfect solution is given to them.

About 70% of car journeys in this country are under 5 miles.

The perfect solution:

That's a commonly quoted statistic but I'd be more interested in what proportion of those journeys could be achieved with a bicycle. A bike would be impractical for, say, doing a big shop, conveying anything more than could fit in a rucksack, or going anywhere with a baby/toddler.

roundthebend

@NothingOnTheTele ; do we need to do Big Shops? We've got home delivery options, which can be served by BEVs. Also, we've done our weekly shop a couple of times using a trailer on our bike. Our Dutch mate took his two kids on a regular bike, and bought a huge double inflatable airbed to carry home. He succeeded.

I think your point is slightly missing something. People don't like change because they want to swap 1 thing for a direct replacement. But change often requires many things to change.

e.g. current perspective "my petrol car can do 400 miles on a tank of fuel and be refilled in 5 minutes. I want a battery car that can do that."

alternative perspective "I only drive 400 miles in one hit twice a year, the rest of the time I'd be OK with 40 miles of range that can be recharged in a few hours from any available plug socket. For the other times, I want reliable trains or a good value car rental".

Change isn't swapping X for Y. If it was then change would be much less scary and not really much of a change. Change is deeper, and I think that's where people are going to need to wake up.

Sporky

If Henry Ford had canvassed people on whether or not he should build a motor car, they'd probably tell him what they really wanted was a faster horse. 

JEM

NothingOnTheTele said:

crunchman said:

roundthebend said:

If you believe that human CO² output is a major contributor to climate change, then we have to change. And change a lot. It seems people will only change if the perfect solution is given to them.

About 70% of car journeys in this country are under 5 miles.

The perfect solution:

That's a commonly quoted statistic but I'd be more interested in what proportion of those journeys could be achieved with a bicycle. A bike would be impractical for, say, doing a big shop, conveying anything more than could fit in a rucksack, or going anywhere with a baby/toddler.

That photo literally shows bikes fitted with panniers and child seats.

NothingOnTheTele

JEM said:

NothingOnTheTele said:

crunchman said:

roundthebend said:

If you believe that human CO² output is a major contributor to climate change, then we have to change. And change a lot. It seems people will only change if the perfect solution is given to them.

About 70% of car journeys in this country are under 5 miles.

The perfect solution:

That's a commonly quoted statistic but I'd be more interested in what proportion of those journeys could be achieved with a bicycle. A bike would be impractical for, say, doing a big shop, conveying anything more than could fit in a rucksack, or going anywhere with a baby/toddler.

That photo literally shows bikes fitted with panniers and child seats.

I did say 'baby/toddler', not 'child'. I don't know whether you can get bicycle seats for babies, but even if you could I'd never expose such a young child to that level of vulnerability - especially considering that I don't live in a nice city like that pictured, with decent cycling infrastructure, low speed limits, and probably traffic calming and restrictions, but in a semi-rural village connected to the outside world by busy main roads with high speed limits. Baby bicycle seats might work for certain people in certain places, but not for anyone around here.

elstoof

Baby/toddler seats are available, as are cargo bikes with a huge seating area for multiple children, big shopping loads, taking a fridge to the dump etc. To be honest you’ve answered your own question a bit, it’s the lack of infrastructure and investment to allow people to cycle safely and feel comfortable doing so is that’s holding us back. The Netherlands showed 50 years ago that it’s possible to change society’s opinion if you invest enough. It’s a lot easier to connect semi rural villages with bike paths than it is to thread cycle routes through densely built cities

darthed1981

Sporky said:

If Henry Ford had canvassed people on whether or not he should build a motor car, they'd probably tell him what they really wanted was a faster horse. 

Back in the early days, the scaremongering meant cars had to drive along with a flunky walking ahead waving a flag.

The advance of technology always has the elderly foaming at the mouth.

S56035

elstoof said:

Baby/toddler seats are available, as are cargo bikes with a huge seating area for multiple children, big shopping loads, taking a fridge to the dump etc. To be honest you’ve answered your own question a bit, it’s the lack of infrastructure and investment to allow people to cycle safely and feel comfortable doing so is that’s holding us back. The Netherlands showed 50 years ago that it’s possible to change society’s opinion if you invest enough. It’s a lot easier to connect semi rural villages with bike paths than it is to thread cycle routes through densely built cities

Is there another country that has a similar take up of cycling that isn't flat?

darthed1981

elstoof said:

Baby/toddler seats are available, as are cargo bikes with a huge seating area for multiple children, big shopping loads, taking a fridge to the dump etc. To be honest you’ve answered your own question a bit, it’s the lack of infrastructure and investment to allow people to cycle safely and feel comfortable doing so is that’s holding us back. The Netherlands showed 50 years ago that it’s possible to change society’s opinion if you invest enough. It’s a lot easier to connect semi rural villages with bike paths than it is to thread cycle routes through densely built cities

Well as many areas have pointed out, many rural areas are already connected by old railways, and back when there was money for people who weren't Tory donors, many were converted to cycle paths.  Thousands of miles are just overgrown mess though - including dozens of tunnels, viaducts etc.

I'd argue many should have trains on them again, but no reason there couldn't be cycle paths built alongside.

Kittyfrisk

darthed1981 said:

Sporky said:

If Henry Ford had canvassed people on whether or not he should build a motor car, they'd probably tell him what they really wanted was a faster horse. 

Back in the early days, the scaremongering meant cars had to drive along with a flunky walking ahead waving a flag.

The advance of technology always has the elderly foaming at the mouth.

Except that in this example it is generally the younger, more environmentally concerned people that are 'foaming at the mouth' 

darthed1981

Kittyfrisk said:

darthed1981 said:

Sporky said:

If Henry Ford had canvassed people on whether or not he should build a motor car, they'd probably tell him what they really wanted was a faster horse. 

Back in the early days, the scaremongering meant cars had to drive along with a flunky walking ahead waving a flag.

The advance of technology always has the elderly foaming at the mouth.

Except that in this example it is generally the younger, more environmentally concerned people that are 'foaming at the mouth' 

In my case, I'm just planning ahead, I'm going to use it to put out car fires.