Happy St Georges Day

stickyfiddle

What's to celebrate? 

Centuries of imperialism, an insane royal family, a sole World Cup win 60 years ago, mostly very consistently shit governments that have bimbled their way out of most things simply because we've been on the right side of history (read: winning), and let's not pretend we haven't committed plenty of attrocities along the way. 

I guess we're good at queueing. Yorkshire Gold is excellent, no doubt. And Dyson hoovers were British originally, weren't they?

I'm not saying I'm anti-England it's just that, on balance, I feel any desire to celebrate the random event that was me being born here instead of somewhere else. 

fretmeister

manicguitarist said:

Why do people loathe any celebration of Englishness?

I'm not actually sure they do.

I think it's more that they loathe the crap that comes with it. The fights, the racist abuse (often against other English people who just happen to be a different colour), the subversion of what could be a good celebration.

Those idiots on the march - where are the placards of brilliant English things? Where are the T-shirts celebrating Isaac Newton or Shakespeare or people carrying a giant Pencil - surely one of the best inventions ever?

Or the fire extinguisher - Godfrey should be hailed as a genius for all the lives his invention (and later versions) saved.

If a nationality should be celebrated at all, it's this sort of thing that should be important, and not be about just having been born somewhere with the right parents. 

Dressing up as a knight in a Hollywood fashioned costume and using it as an excuse for a rumble has ruined it for everybody, and has tainted everybody who might like to join in even with the best intentions.

robgilmo

Offset said:

robgilmo said:

There is a big difference between far right skin heads chanting about muslim ray guns and waving an English flag and a bunch of families having a street party with the same flags, anyone can see that, people just need to shake this notion off and get on with celebrating.

I wish you were right, but I fear you're not.

The flag isnt tainted, just the notion of intention when displaying it, that notion of intention can be easily shed once the onlooker realises there is no intention except that of celebration?

Petepassion

Whether it be a flag or a ‘country’ is just far too ambiguous. They mean very different things to many different groups. There is no one accepted definition 

fretmeister

Offset said:

robgilmo said:

There is a big difference between far right skin heads chanting about muslim ray guns and waving an English flag and a bunch of families having a street party with the same flags, anyone can see that, people just need to shake this notion off and get on with celebrating.

I wish you were right, but I fear you're not.

While there is a clear difference between the 2, how does one recognise that when they are flying the same flag?
It's safer to avoid them altogether. Far Right Skinheads have parties too.

fretmeister

Petepassion said:

Whether it be a flag or a ‘country’ is just far too ambiguous. They mean very different things to many different groups. There is no one accepted definition 

True enough - so go to other countries and ask the public what they think the flag means.

The responses will not be kind, but they will be similar.

fretmeister

robgilmo said:

The flag isnt tainted, just the notion of intention when displaying it, that notion of intention can be easily shed once the onlooker realises there is no intention except that of celebration?

I think it is tainted. If England actually manage to win another RWC in my lifetime I will be celebrating that achievement but I won't be waving that flag - I'd be too worried of being assumed to be like one of the people on the march. 

There's a lot of people who have the same view. Might not be a majority, but no flag should cause embarrassment for any of it's citizens, and that flag does. It's a real shame.

robgilmo

fretmeister said:

Petepassion said:

Whether it be a flag or a ‘country’ is just far too ambiguous. They mean very different things to many different groups. There is no one accepted definition 

True enough - so go to other countries and ask the public what they think the flag means.

The responses will not be kind, but they will be similar.

In fairness I dont think they are really bothered.

guitars4you

Offset said:

I can't stand these oafs who drape themselvs in the FOSG and pretend it makes them the very essence of what it is to be  English.  

About 2 years ago St Georges Day was a Sat - A mate of mine was 50 that day,  so we had a bit of a pub crawl etc in our small town - Sounded like a good idea at the time - The amount of 'younger yobs' (I say younger but most were 18-30) who had relevant flags and scarves and sang, or should I say yorped out a host of filth - No surrender to the IRA - Rule Brittania - I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk and as we are in a Derby fan zone then 'We all effing hate Leeds' etc - they took their chants from pub to pub and on the streets - I bet not one of them could tell you the history of the 'Irish conflict' - But it didn't stop them ripping into a chant time after time  - Nice to see that we spent so much time and money educating them 

munckee

The only thing worse that the idiots who are proud of being English are the tossers  who aren’t. 

fretmeister

munckee said:

The only thing worse that the idiots who are proud of being English are the tossers  who aren’t. 

People who aren't proud of an accident of birth are tossers?

munckee

fretmeister said:

munckee said:

The only thing worse that the idiots who are proud of being English are the tossers  who aren’t. 

People who aren't proud of an accident of birth are tossers?

Yes but so are those who are proud of it. 

Philly_Q

munckee said:

fretmeister said:

munckee said:

The only thing worse that the idiots who are proud of being English are the tossers  who aren’t. 

People who aren't proud of an accident of birth are tossers?

Yes but so are those who are proud of it. 

So only people who are sort-of-indifferent about it aren't tossers?

robgilmo

guitars4you said:

Offset said:

I can't stand these oafs who drape themselvs in the FOSG and pretend it makes them the very essence of what it is to be  English.  

About 2 years ago St Georges Day was a Sat - A mate of mine was 50 that day,  so we had a bit of a pub crawl etc in our small town - Sounded like a good idea at the time - The amount of 'younger yobs' (I say younger but most were 18-30) who had relevant flags and scarves and sang, or should I say yorped out a host of filth - No surrender to the IRA - Rule Brittania - I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk and as we are in a Derby fan zone then 'We all effing hate Leeds' etc - they took their chants from pub to pub and on the streets - I bet not one of them could tell you the history of the 'Irish conflict' - But it didn't stop them ripping into a chant time after time  - Nice to see that we spent so much time and money educating them 

You know, growing up in N Ireland and following the English curriculum our school had to get a special teacher in to teach Irish history ralating to the conflicts, history itself is flawed because its usually told by one side of whatever happened and thus can be somewhat bias, so its no surprise these kids didnt know anything about the history of the conflict in Ireland and its not actually their fault that they dont.

munckee

Philly_Q said:

munckee said:

fretmeister said:

munckee said:

The only thing worse that the idiots who are proud of being English are the tossers  who aren’t. 

People who aren't proud of an accident of birth are tossers?

Yes but so are those who are proud of it. 

So only people who are sort-of-indifferent about it aren't tossers?

It was too difficult to call so I had both views at the same time, but I suspect the indifferent ones may also be tossers.  

fretmeister

Philly_Q said:

munckee said:

fretmeister said:

munckee said:

The only thing worse that the idiots who are proud of being English are the tossers  who aren’t. 

People who aren't proud of an accident of birth are tossers?

Yes but so are those who are proud of it. 

So only people who are sort-of-indifferent about it aren't tossers?

Non proud is indifferent, surely? The people embarrassed of an accident of birth are the natural opposite of the proud.

Kittyfrisk

fretmeister said:

There is of course a very real problem with the image though. 

This is a real tweet by Paul Golding of Britain First, and it does nothing but open up anyone waving or wearing the English Flag outside of a sporting event to absolute ridicule:


*snip* image removed.

It's this sort of crap that ruins it for anyone who wants to use it in an appropriate way. Flags are an indication of togetherness / loyalty etc etc and when absolute melts like Golding do this sort of thing it lumps together all people flying it and causes suspicion as there is no way of telling which type of flag waver a person is.

That flag has a serious image problem and I can't see that being fixed any time soon.

That image is a great example of why artificial intelligence should never be allowed to be utilised by those lacking any...

Philly_Q

munckee said:

Philly_Q said:

munckee said:

fretmeister said:

munckee said:

The only thing worse that the idiots who are proud of being English are the tossers  who aren’t. 

People who aren't proud of an accident of birth are tossers?

Yes but so are those who are proud of it. 

So only people who are sort-of-indifferent about it aren't tossers?

It was too difficult to call so I had both views at the same time, but I suspect the indifferent ones may also be tossers.  

So everyone's a tosser.  Sung to this tune:

thecolourbox

I'm not even slightly patriotic so maybe that's why I don't understand, but I've never quite understood the concept of supposedly celebrating the "country" (whatever that is) through the medium of idolising a fairly randomly selected individual man - regardless of where he came from or when really.

breakstuff

Just seen this vid on YouTube. Some of the comments are thoroughly depressing and utterly predictable.