Game of Thrones

Axe_meister

And it had a girl kissing another girls tits

lloyd

Good episode again, bit of a slower pace, but enjoyable.

Not really sure what the whole return of the Hound bit was, but I guess they have to bring him in somehow-was it more drawn out in the books?

english_bob

lloyd said:

Good episode again, bit of a slower pace, but enjoyable.

Not really sure what the whole return of the Hound bit was, but I guess they have to bring him in somehow-was it more drawn out in the books?

It's not in the books at all- at least not yet. It's very subtly hinted that he might be alive under similar circumstances to what was in the show, but not confirmed.

At this point there's so much divergence between the show and the books on so many plot points that it's difficult to compare anything directly. People are dead in the show who are alive in the books (Stannis, for one, probably Mance Rayder), or dead, presumed dead or MIA in the books (Jon, Benjen, Sandor Clegane) and alive, resurrected or reintroduced in the show, and there are tons of characters who exist in the books but have been written out or replaced by existing characters in the show for reasons of budget, plot streamlining and general dumbing down.

In any case, the show has gone beyond the point that the books have reached in terms of plot anyway (except the stuff with Jaime at Riverrun), so a lot of what we're seeing is new territory that will be in The Winds Of Winter one day if it appears in the books at all.

I wonder if we might see Gendry again soon...

lloyd

english_bob said:

lloyd said:

Good episode again, bit of a slower pace, but enjoyable.

Not really sure what the whole return of the Hound bit was, but I guess they have to bring him in somehow-was it more drawn out in the books?

It's not in the books at all- at least not yet. It's very subtly hinted that he might be alive under similar circumstances to what was in the show, but not confirmed.

At this point there's so much divergence between the show and the books on so many plot points that it's difficult to compare anything directly. People are dead in the show who are alive in the books (Stannis, for one, probably Mance Rayder), or dead, presumed dead or MIA in the books (Jon, Benjen, Sandor Clegane) and alive, resurrected or reintroduced in the show, and there are tons of characters who exist in the books but have been written out or replaced by existing characters in the show for reasons of budget, plot streamlining and general dumbing down.

In any case, the show has gone beyond the point that the books have reached in terms of plot anyway (except the stuff with Jaime at Riverrun), so a lot of what we're seeing is new territory that will be in The Winds Of Winter one day if it appears in the books at all.

I wonder if we might see Gendry again soon...

Ah ok cool, thanks.

I know there's some divergence from the books but that whole scene(s) felt shoehorned in somehow so was curious to see if it was a longer episode than the books.

english_bob

thumpingrug said:

the waif's instructions were that she must not suffer.   I suspect that the waif has failed and will experience some consequences with "the girl" being saved and sent on a further quest.

I kinda like that line of thinking, but I think Arya is done with the Faceless Men. It's not really clear to me what the power dynamic is between Waif and "Jaqen H'Ghar"*, therefore unclear whether "don't let her suffer" is an order or just a request, therefore unclear what the consequences might be.

* just don't get me started on what a stupid idea it is to have his face on that character. 

boogieman

At the end of the last episode I thought it was a set up for the Waif to fail. She seemed too vengeful and vindictive against Arya to be the emotionless killer they're supposed to be. I reckon Jaqen will save Arya.

english_bob

boogieman said:

At the end of the last episode I thought it was a set up for the Waif to fail. She seemed too vengeful and vindictive against Arya to be the emotionless killer they're supposed to be. I reckon Jaqen will save Arya.

I don't know. "Jaqen" did authorize her to kill Arya. 

Regardless of the Waif's failings as a Faceless (wo)Man (and I agree, she's way to keen to get rid of Arya), Arya has basically washed out of the training for the same reasons- she's been making her own decisions about who should and shouldn't die, which is a big no-no for the Faceless Men. 

Sure, "Jaqen" (is he? isn't he? If the faceless men really are no-one, there is no Jaqen H'Ghar, he's just an identity that served for a particular time and place.) seems more sympathetic to Arya than to the Waif, but he can't help her without also going against everything their order is supposed to believe.

english_bob

lloyd said:

I know there's some divergence from the books but that whole scene(s) felt shoehorned in somehow so was curious to see if it was a longer episode than the books.

Ask me again after the next book comes out

DLM

http://i.imgur.com/xmgh01P.jpg

Garthy

Presumably with Olenna Tyrell leaving, Mace & the army will also leave Kings Landing, and will High Garden stop sending food and livestock to Kings Landing? With Cersie confined to the Red Keep will she starve without the Tyrell supply lines?

english_bob

Garthy said:

Presumably with Olenna Tyrell leaving, Mace & the army will also leave Kings Landing, and will High Garden stop sending food and livestock to Kings Landing? With Cersie confined to the Red Keep will she starve without the Tyrell supply lines?

Could well work out that way. At this point The Reach (Tyrell territory) is about the only place in Westeros where decent crops grow that hasn't been ruined by war and/or winter. Jaime's taken the bulk of the Lannister army to the Riverlands, the Tyrell army will very likely leave with Olenna and take their food supplies with them, which means Cersei's stuck in the city with very few soldiers and a whole lot of hungry people. She's screwed.

thumpingrug

english_bob said:

thumpingrug said:

the waif's instructions were that she must not suffer.   I suspect that the waif has failed and will experience some consequences with "the girl" being saved and sent on a further quest.

I kinda like that line of thinking, but I think Arya is done with the Faceless Men. It's not really clear to me what the power dynamic is between Waif and "Jaqen H'Ghar"*, therefore unclear whether "don't let her suffer" is an order or just a request, therefore unclear what the consequences might be.

* just don't get me started on what a stupid idea it is to have his face on that character. 

Im quite keen to get you started.  Ive been wondering for a while why of the faceless men (presumably there are others) this particular one appears to have a name, unless Jaqen H'Gar is more of a title?    I haven't read the books. so don't know if their is more backstory in them.

DLM

@thumpingrug Jaqen H'Gar was just the name/identity the faceless assassin assumed on the mission before he was captured and thrown in the Black Cells. From there he was to be sent to the Wall, until Arya set him free, saving his life and earning the right to pick names for him to kill. The whole "Jaqen in Braavos" thing is oversimplification for TV, which is why our learned friend is so agitated about it.

thumpingrug

DLM said:

@thumpingrug Jaqen H'Gar was just the name/identity the faceless assassin assumed on the mission before he was captured and thrown in the Black Cells. From there he was to be sent to the Wall, until Arya set him free, saving his life and earning the right to pick names for him to kill. The whole "Jaqen in Braavos" thing is oversimplification for TV, which is why our learned friend is so agitated about it.

Cheers,  I remember those episodes but not in that much detail.  Makes sense.  

littlegreenman

DLM said:

@thumpingrug Jaqen H'Gar was just the name/identity the faceless assassin assumed on the mission before he was captured and thrown in the Black Cells. From there he was to be sent to the Wall, until Arya set him free, saving his life and earning the right to pick names for him to kill. The whole "Jaqen in Braavos" thing is oversimplification for TV, which is why our learned friend is so agitated about it.

Hence the scene when Arya gets to Bravos and asks for him at the House of Black and White. "there is no-one here of that name".

DiscoStu

There have been so many cameos the last couple of weeks.

Fingers crossed the Chuckle Brothers get a go soon. That could have been them at the siege tonight!

english_bob

DLM said:

@thumpingrug Jaqen H'Gar was just the name/identity the faceless assassin assumed on the mission before he was captured and thrown in the Black Cells. From there he was to be sent to the Wall, until Arya set him free, saving his life and earning the right to pick names for him to kill. The whole "Jaqen in Braavos" thing is oversimplification for TV, which is why our learned friend is so agitated about it.

Exactly. In summary, Arya meets Jaqen while she's travelling from King's Landing to the Wall with Yoren. He's one of three men being kept in a cage because they're too dangerous to be free. The other two (Rorge and Biter) are properly nasty bastards but seem to be scared of Jaqen, who is friendly to Arya. 

When they're attacked by Lannister soldiers and Yoren is killed, the wagon with the cage on it is set on fire and Jaqen pleads with Arya to help them get out. She does, and all three men are captured by the Lannisters and join their army. After she's captured as well, Arya meets Jaqen again in Harrenhal and he explains that because she saved three lives, the many-faced god (death) is now owed three lives, and Arya gets to choose whose. She chooses two people in Harrenhal that she doesn't like and are cruel to her, then realizes too late that she could have chosen people who really matter- Tywin Lannister, The Mountain etc. who have left Harrenhal by then. She asks Jaqen to help her escape with Hot Pie and Gendry, but Jaqen refuses, saying that she only has one life left to claim, and that it will take more than that to get her out. Instead she names Jaqen as the third life. He agrees to help her if she takes back his name, which she does.

When he and Arya part company he changes his face, and the man with his new face is next seen in the Citadel (having called at Pyke to kill Balon Greyjoy at Euron's request) where he's clearly up to something, but it's unclear what. 

He's not in Braavos, and even if he was, that's not his real name or his real face. He is no-one.

FWIW, we have no idea how he got in to the Black Cells in King's Landing. It seems unlikely that someone with his skills would have been captured unless he meant to be, and it's quite possible that he was wearing a different face when he came out of the Black Cells than the one he had when he went in (they're pitch black and the jailers aren't the sharpest tools in the shed). Hence the slightly implausible "Jaqen H'Ghar is Syrio Forel" theory that does the rounds on the internet.

littlegreenman said:

DLM said:

@thumpingrug Jaqen H'Gar was just the name/identity the faceless assassin assumed on the mission before he was captured and thrown in the Black Cells. From there he was to be sent to the Wall, until Arya set him free, saving his life and earning the right to pick names for him to kill. The whole "Jaqen in Braavos" thing is oversimplification for TV, which is why our learned friend is so agitated about it.

Hence the scene when Arya gets to Bravos and asks for him at the House of Black and White. "there is no-one here of that name".

And the scene after Arya kills Meryn Trant where "Jaqen" gives Arya a "we only kill who we're told to kill" bollocking and drinks poison, only to be revealed not to be the real "Jaqen". That would have been fine, only then another "Jaqen" turns up, who we're all meant to think is the real "Jaqen". Only none of them are really "Jaqen H'Ghar" because there's no such person. Only then the show muddies the waters again when it appears that "Jaqen" does have some sort of relationship or fondness for Arya or something, so maybe he does exist. 

But if he exists, then at least one of the Faceless Men isn't really no-one, he's Jaqen Pissing H'Ghar, and he's just as partial about who they kill and who they don't as Arya is (which apparently is punishable by death), and their whole "we are no-one and we only serve the many-faced god" schtick is bullshit. 

Much as I like Tom Wlaschiha's performance, it would have been far less confusing if they'd left him out of the S5-6 Faceless Men plot.

TimmyO

Hence the slightly implausible "Jaqen H'Ghar is Syrio Forel" theory that does the rounds on the internet.

I think that's got as much to do with people loving the Syrio character and desperately wanting him to not be dead

(count me among them lol) 

In fact 'that' scene in the 'Stick Them With The Pointy End' episode is my favourite of all 6 seasons so far. 

Bogwhoppit

I just sit and watch it with a cuppa in my hand.  Am I normal ?

english_bob

Bogwhoppit said:

I just sit and watch it with a cuppa in my hand.  Am I normal ?

Yes. The tinfoil theories and shit are more associated with the book readers.