Amp Modelling Sucks

Drew_TNBD

Preface with: imho, ymmv, my 2p, etc...

Amp modelling sucks. After 8 years of fucking around with it on and off and coming through many different levels of improvement, in my honest opinion, amp modelling is nowhere near as good as real valve amplifiers. Real valve amps just have something special to them, even the crap ones. It's like the difference between listening to a track that has been mixed, and a track that has been mixed and mastered - a valve power section gives it that final polish and punch that makes your guts vibrate.

I've had two Axe FX II's. Three Kempers. At least two Pod HD's. I've tried the Blackstar TVP amps, and a whole host of VST plugins... none of them set my nuts on fire like my valve amps do.

I've never wanted to be one of those people who believes in mojo... but I'm just going to have to accept that I do in this instance.

Better than believing in sky faeries I suppose!

joeyowen

I'll agree with you buutttt!

A lot of axe/kemper/pod/helix folks will like the ability to record without shaking the house or waking the baby

once in a finished track, you'd never know the difference.

Live however, different ball game completely

randomhandclaps

Yeah?  Really?  Well fuck you.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/5d/74/b5/5d74b5e4614ea2adc6ededc29746e757.jpg

fretmeister

Funnily enough I actually like the artificial nature of modelling and pedal distortion etc.

I've been chasing tube amps forever and I reckon I'd probably be better off just going modelling completely.

randomhandclaps

fretmeister said:

I reckon I'd probably be better off just going modelling completely.

Yeah... Could work I suppose but I wouldn't give up the law stuff just yet, you know just in case your agent can't find you enough suitable jobs.

paulmapp8306

Got to say, I was coming to the same conclusion with my AFX, after putting it up against several TOP amps at Nottingham Amp Fests, but yet again m opinion has been changed.  This time by ditching my Matrix SS Power amp, and trying a Fryette Power Station.  The Valve power amp gives back the weight/transparency missing with the Matrix  - which never lacked volume, and being neutrally designed (like a HiFi valve Power Amp) doesnt colour the tone like a traditional Valve Power Amp (that I have used before).

I have come to the conclusion, that the valve Power amp stage just reacts with cabs - Im guessing because of the low O/P impedance - in a way even a quality SS amp doesnt.  BUT normally those vcalve power amps colour the modelers output to some extent, so tonally mess with things.  The Power station just adds the valve/cab interaction without the colour.

Cabicular

yeah you need Valves in their somewhere IMO

Works ok at low volumes and for recordings but live you need the punch and dynamics of a decent power section

The Freyette is great for that kind of thing or the early atomic reactor amps

The way I currently run the Helix is valves on stage , XLR outs to FOH

For some reason it doesn't seem as important to the FOH mix as it does to me the player

Drew_TNBD

Cabicular said:

yeah you need Valves in their somewhere IMO

Works ok at low volumes and for recordings but live you need the punch and dynamics of a decent power section

The Freyette is great for that kind of thing or the early atomic reactor amps

The way I currently run the Helix is valves on stage , XLR outs to FOH

For some reason it doesn't seem as important to the FOH mix as it does to me the player

What's your stage setup?

Strat_a_tat_tat

Well... with that list of stuff having come and gone from your rig... no one can say you haven't given the various modelling options a chance over the past few years.

octatonic

I agree actually.

The Axe FX sounds as good as a well recorded guitar, but I'm done with modelling for live.

Tube amp and the FX8 does me just fine.

Drew_TNBD

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

Well... with that list of stuff having come and gone from your rig... no one can say you haven't given the various modelling options a chance over the past few years.

Mate, it's completely ridiculous how much stuff I've gone through over the last 8 years. And guess what? I'm right back where I started!! VHT Sig X, a Laney VH100R, and a bunch of single pedals!!

Over promise yet under deliver seems to be the order of the day when it comes to modern multi-fx processors and modelling units.

Extremely depressing.

Fiftyshadesofjay

I've always believed it totally depends on your situation and set up. 

In your case where you do a lot of gigs without a decent FOH, valve amps are the way forward. You can spend ages trying to get a modeller to emulate this, but what's the point if the real deal works fine? And that's coming from a Kemper user myself.

Cabicular

Drew_fx said:

Cabicular said:

yeah you need Valves in their somewhere IMO

Works ok at low volumes and for recordings but live you need the punch and dynamics of a decent power section

The Freyette is great for that kind of thing or the early atomic reactor amps

The way I currently run the Helix is valves on stage , XLR outs to FOH

For some reason it doesn't seem as important to the FOH mix as it does to me the player

What's your stage setup?

Helix into Freyette and or Atomic Reactor 1x12 via the 1\4 outs (on a bigger stage I'll run stereo on stage as well and send one of the amps over to the bass player)

XLR outs straight in the the Line 6 M20D mixer panned reasonable hard left and right 

Big volume knob only controls onstage sound (i.e. 1\4 outputs). I have an exp pedal set from unity to 7db for solo boost which happens through all outputs. (I prefer the control of sweeping the volume up and down rather than a big button boost which always sounds shit when you switch it off)

Smidge in singers monitor quite a lot in Drummers monitor (he likes to hear me)

I've got a king of tone and B9 in two of the helix loops

Cabicular

Fess up time

I don't really use the amp models. I use a clean model then load it up with FX to give me clean crunch and filthy

scuse the crappy iphone mic but this is my main patch

Strat_a_tat_tat

Drew_fx said:

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

Well... with that list of stuff having come and gone from your rig... no one can say you haven't given the various modelling options a chance over the past few years.

Mate, it's completely ridiculous how much stuff I've gone through over the last 8 years. And guess what? I'm right back where I started!! VHT Sig X, a Laney VH100R, and a bunch of single pedals!!

Over promise yet under deliver seems to be the order of the day when it comes to modern multi-fx processors and modelling units.

Extremely depressing.

Yeah... but no... but yeah... but... at least you've checked it all out and come to a conclusion that's based on actual experience of all the options. There's value in that.  Especially for a guitarist... as most of us seem to be doomed to keep wondering if the next shiny toy may be better than the last shiny toy.

So... enjoy your moment of enlightenment (you've earned it)... before the next ground-breaking thingy gets you gassing again!

Drew_TNBD

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

before the next ground-breaking thingy gets you gassing again!

Feckin' hope not!

The only thing out there I haven't tried extensively is the Helix. But our new 2nd guitarist has one, and even he says the modelling isn't up to snuff. Good enough for getting ideas down, but not good enough for live. He uses it purely for FX.

Strat_a_tat_tat

@Drew_fx

In 1977, I moved on from my old 15 watt Epiphone valve combo (nice little thing made in the Gibson Kalamazoo factory)... to a shiny new piece of electronics.... a HH VS Musician 100 watt head.  'VS' stood for 'valve sound'.  HaHaHa.... nothing like valve sound distortion. Horrible thing... and I've been suspicious of electronics - and over-hyped marketing claims - ever since.

OK, I know that was the dark ages - and things have moved on massively... especially in recent years. However, I'm still not totally convinced by modelling.

I went back to valves many years ago... and have stuck with them right up to now... when - with all the recent hype (especially on US forums) - I was thinking of getting a Helix for live use.  Now... I think I'll pass.

So... even though it's no consolation to you... thanks for playing your part in helping me to hang onto my £1100.

That said... even though I've not gone down the amp modelling route... over the years, I've still blown a load of cash - chopping and changing valve amps. So, we've kind of done similar things (financially)... just with different types of kit.

Drew_TNBD

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

@Drew_fx

In 1977, I moved on from my old 15 watt Epiphone valve combo (nice little thing made in the Gibson Kalamazoo factory)... to a shiny new piece of electronics.... a HH VS Musician 100 watt head.  'VS' stood for 'valve sound'.  HaHaHa.... nothing like valve sound distortion. Horrible thing... and I've been suspicious of electronics - and over-hyped marketing claims - ever since.

OK, I know that was the dark ages - and things have moved on massively... especially in recent years. However, I'm still not totally convinced by modelling.

I went back to valves many years ago... and have stuck with them right up to now... when - with all the recent hype (especially on US forums) - I was thinking of getting a Helix for live use.  Now... I think I'll pass.

So... even though it's no consolation to you... thanks for playing your part in helping me to hang onto my £1100.

That said... even though I've not gone down the amp modelling route... over the years, I've still blown a load of cash - chopping and changing valve amps. So, we've kind of done similar things (financially)... just with different types of kit.

Oh don't get me wrong, I've been through the valve amp cycle too!

Only saving grace there is that I'm a big fan of all singing all dancing multi channel amps, and there aren't that many of those around that are easily accessible, so the amount of valve amps I've chopped and changed is relatively little compared to some!

Strat_a_tat_tat

Drew_fx said:

Oh don't get me wrong, I've been through the valve amp cycle too!

Only saving grace there is that I'm a big fan of all singing all dancing multi channel amps, and there aren't that many of those around that are easily accessible, so the amount of valve amps I've chopped and changed is relatively little compared to some!

Part of life's rich pattern... that makes you much less rich.

Jetfire

Tbf, all the huff and puff about Matrix power amps, they are awful and very expensive in my opinion.

 

 

stonevibe

Best guitar tones are simple and that is basically what valve amps are.

Modelling this is hard, because humans aren't perfect and we are the ones writing the modelling algorithms still. Ones and Zeros can map things, but they aren't great with simplicity containing variables outside of parameters and are really bad at random. We 'program' it in, but it is still nowhere near the actual thing we are trying to mimic in reality.

Shit analogy; No light source is as enjoyable to the eye as daylight. You can mimic it using technology, but it still not as nice as actual daylight.