Picking New Monitors

Nerine

I actually wouldn't recommend Genelecs without trying them first. And I own a pair, use them daily and like them a lot.
You have to really dig the Genelec sound as such. Once you get to know them though, they work very well.

They're a a very "fast" speaker. Very direct and unflattering. They never sound lazy or tubby. The imaging is razor sharp, even more so with the GLM/AutoCal system I have. I can move the pan in PT and hear the difference even when adjusting by very small increments. Like if you move the pan maybe 3 to the left or right, you can hear it quite obviously.

Danny1969

The thing with monitors is you can't audition a pair by ear and decide which one's you like ... that's not really the point. To audition  a pair you would have to mix a project on them and then hear the mix in a variety of different settings and hear how well it translated. No ones gonna let you do that unfortunately until you buy them. 

I recently sold my NS10's for twice what I paid for them, they were a perfect example of a not so great sounding speaker that was perfect for mixing. I still have my Goodmans which do the same trick. 

thomasross20

Actually that's true - each has their own sound and I know some people find Genelecs "tiring"

Cirrus

@Danny1969 - absolutely, but nonetheless it'd be nice to have a rough comparison before buying - even if it's just "The Focals are a bit softer in the treble region than the Gennies", that can't hurt to know. I'll bring a couple of my own mixes to hear on them, particularly one where I feel like my old monitors made me set some compression wrong (sounds daft but I found it hard to set attack/ release on my old system, but when I heard those mixes at the mastering studio I IMMEDIATELY heard it and knew what needed to change) so I'll be listening out for how well the monitors show me issues I know exist in my old mixes.

Then I'll be buying them and mixing two albums in quite short order, so if it turns out I think I made a bad choice I'll take them back and exchange for something else!

Danny1969

@Cirrus - do you mean compression on the master bus ? rather than per channel ?

I actually started out with active monitors like everyone seems to buy these days but after buying 2 pairs and not feeling they cut it I sold them and brought a big amp, a Yamaha 300 watt rms a side beast that could deliver huge amounts of clean power and we paired up 3 sets of passive speakers with that via a passive speaker switched. The Goodmans were for me, Panasonics for my partner and we brought NS10's for visiting engineers cos we thought that's what they expected. I have to say the big amp into quality passive speakers impressed me much more than any of the active stuff ........... I'm sure you can get great active speakers but they will cost a lot of money as it's not easy to make an amp that can deliver huge amounts of clean power cheaply. 

It's just a tip for the bargain conscious, a big clean amp into well focused passive bookshelf speakers will outperform most of the sub £1K active models 

guitarfishbay

The Focal Solos are softer in the treble region than the Genelecs IMO.  But they're not soft - they just don't present as forward.  You can use the adjustments on the back to tweak the voicing but I really like the stock setting on my pair.

The Genelecs also seem to have more sub bass, when I heard them in the same room.  However my set of Focals took a while to break in and now the sub bass is good, more than enough for my tastes.  I have no idea how broken in the demo pair were.

This is what is in the manual for the Solo 6be's:

"Running in 

As in all brand new loudspeaker the drivers need some run in period: they are mechanical elements demanding a little time to settle and adapt to the climatic environment. This period will vary depending of the working conditions and may take up to a few weeks. Avoid pushing the speakers very hard during their first hours of use, but to accelerate the run-in process it is good practice to operate the speakers at moderate levels for 20 hours or so, with programmes having significant low frequency content. Only once the transducers have come to stabilize will you get the optimum performance."

I followed it, basically I just played electro/dance/dubstep music at low/moderate volume for a week before turning them up more.  I actually felt it took about another week and then all of a sudden the bass seemed quite effortless.  Maybe I was running them too quiet to start out.  They did feel stiff and tight out of the box and like they had less bass than the demo pair I'd heard.  Right now I don't have any plans to ever change them.

I totally get what you mean.  I spent an evening in a nice studio with PMC MB2S-As (IIRC they're £40k+) and I heard every single mistake so easily.  

Snap

I@ve got a monitor upgrade planned too.

blob of blu tack under each corner should do it,

thomasross20

I haven't actually tried but I think Danny is right that passive + amplifier is better. 

guitarfishbay

Why would you think that if you haven't tried it?

I definitely think there's merit in having headroom.  I think that is more his point (and that like for like quality could be cheaper with passives+amp) than the passives are better speakers.

If you look at the Yamaha HS7s vs the Genelec 8040s, both are 6.5" woofers.  HS7s are 65 watt woofers and 35 watt tweeters, the 8040s are 90 watt woofer and 90 watt tweeter.

More power is going to give more headroom for transients.  For studio you want clean power so that you're not distorting.

Sporky

domforr said:

Great, thanks. The focal alphas are a bit too expenisve for me. What about the

Presonus Eris 5's?

I have the E8s for use with my Helix; they are very large. Very quiet in terms of noise floor and they sound spiffy to me, but the last time I used any actual monitor speakers was back at uni so have no idea how the Eris compare to the competition.

I was looking at the Yamahas and the Equators, but was a bit put off the latter from the reports of the high level of background noise. Yamaha only publish -10dB frequency range, and I wanted something that'd reproduce the lowest note on a cello nicely.

Also the Eris look like grumpy robots, which is obviously good.

Nerine

Yeah, unfortunately listening to them in a showroom is only part of the equation. You don't ever really know how they are going to react to the room they are going to be put in until you try it. And for extended periods until they are properly loosened up and run in a bit. Having heard a couple of different speakers in the same room, I also think that the room imparts its character on the listening environment more so than the speakers.
Especially since most studio monitors are designed to be neutral and flat.
It's really a bit of a crap shoot, but speaker manufacturers at least have a target to aim for in their designs. Most go for the same ideals, although none really sound the same, and I think that's telling when you audition them side by side.
But even so, I think the difference between speakers is much less than the difference in rooms.

If that makes any sense anyway...

Cirrus

It does make sense, hence I'll look for a place with a decent return policy so if I do a couple of weeks mixing on them and I'm gnashing my teeth I can always exchange them.

The room is treated with corner traps and wall panels, it's a bit dull sounding but I know it quite well.

guitarfishbay

You could contact KMR? I think they stock 8040, CMS65 and Solo6be, they've got a demo room in London somewhere if that isn't too much travel. My understanding is they're flexible with exchanging, though not sure what their policy is on returns though, their site doesn't seem to like my phone today.

blobb

I recently went through this and found a set of Acoustic Energy AE 22's. They were £800+ new, £400 used, but not used at all really as I bought them from a Hi-fi user who just wanted to try them out. Having now mixed on them, I can agree with the comments on auditioning, i.e. you only really get to see what they can do when used in anger. I moved up from a powerful amp into passive Tannoy speakers and the difference is night and day. Not discrediting the previous view that amp + passives is worth looking at but my experience now is that these monitors added a huge amount of value to my workflow in terms of visualising the soundstage, tweaking eq, judging reverbs and the mixdown translates across other systems much better. Discontinued now so you would be looking at auctions but well worth considering. Some say they have taken the NS10 approach (not good to listen to but great for picking out detail) but I would say they are better than that. You can listen to them as hi-fi speakers, very musical. Of course, a lot depends on where you are going to put them .....

Cirrus

Went to PMT manchester today and had a good 40 mins going back and forth between CMS 65s, Alpha 65s, Genelec 8040bs, and Adam AX7s.

All good, and all better than anything I've mixed through before. The 8040s were clear and deep, really punchy low end that belied their size. The soundstage had depth, I'd probably say that although they're not "scooped" per se, I did think the midrange felt a bit softer and more distant than the focals, and they were doing something nice to the treble which I didn't quite trust. The CMS 65s were more open in the midrange, low end extension didn't seem as deep or as punchy as the 8040s but strangely from listening to tracks, both my own and commercial releases on CD, I felt like I could hear exactly what was going on down below all the same. I think I could really judge balances on these speakers. That open midrange was great too, and I found that with the 8040s I was doing this thing where I was listening to different frequency ranges and judging them. With the '65s, I wasn't thinking like that. I was just hearing music - The smack of the singer's lips before the first line, the resonance coming off the low tom, the way the bass and kick were sitting...

Basically, I think it's the CMS 65s for me. I'm almost afraid to go to a place that stocks the Solo 6s in case they ruin me. The thing I liked most about them is that not only did Jeff Buckly and Alice in Chains sound really great through them, but when I listened to one of my own mixes I could hear the things I'd done wrong!

In a comparison between CMS and Alpha 65, the alphas sounded flatter, more band passed and didn't have that sense that I could hear into the mix - though they definitely had a "family sound". The Adams impressed me a lot more than I thought they would - Nice low end and low mids. I'd heard reports that the treble was wierd, and I do think they'd be a bit mellow up their for me to mix on, but I can totally hear how you could get used to their sound.

guitarfishbay

There are a used set of Solo 6's on best offer on eBay. Though no guarantee you'll prefer them to the CMS really.

Cirrus

I've ordered the CMS65s. The Solo 6s are hugely tempting, but I don't think I can justify the extra outlay even of that second hand pair. Also the CMS series have removable metal grills - which is a huge boon for transporting them as I will on occasion, and protecting against cats/ possible future children (gulp) when they're set up at home. I suspect they're good enough that they'll always be useful, even if I did upgrade in the future.

guitarfishbay

Yeah I actually think that is the better decision for you anyway - you know you liked them, but you can also return them if they don't work out. Selling anything you don't like s/h can be more hassle than it is worth.

Cirrus

The only problem is that now I have no excuses for not getting my solo album finished.

Cirrus

Well, I'm wondering why I didn't get better speakers 5 years ago. Very very pleased with how these are sounding after a weekend of use.

Interestingly, they come with this slip in the top;

And there's no doubt that the low end is changing. I ran them for a few hours at home at TV volume on the day they arrived, then I took them to my studio and set them up so 0db on my console = around 85dB, then listened to some tracks I know well. At first they did sound a bit bass light (even with the low shelf at +2), but last night after 5 hours or so use over the weekend I played some of the same reference tracks and the extra depth was obvious - even turning the low shelf back to 0 you could almost feel the kick hits, and if you put your hands close to the speakers you could feel more vibration in the air.

So, speaker break in is pretty evident here.

Now, I'm slightly suspicious of monitors with lots of low end, and I deliberately don't make that part of my criteria for picking speakers - sometimes you can be impressed by lots of punch and boom but end up not being able to judge the midrange properly. But it's really gratifying with these speakers that the midrange is so clear and open, but the low end extension is still there, well balanced with the rest of the signal.

Anyway, really loving them so far. Here they are just after I unpacked them;